BRZ vs E46 M3

[serialk11r]

If I'm not mistaken, BMW wants to be the "sporty" luxury car maker. They pander to rich people who want a slightly harder suspension and "lightweight chassis" (compared to 2 ton Mercedes) so they can feel like they have a sporty car, not people who actually want a sports car.

At least that's how it looks now. It makes good money! Building a serious sports car for people who could care less about actual capability of their car would be a waste.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

You're right, it wasn't directed at you so why do you remind me of that guy that jumps in the middle of an arguement and assumes the role of the other person with half the story? Go read through the 1000+ posts on the FRS vs GC thread then reread my comment

Dunno if you're still reading this thread, but FWIW I did read all the posts here and in the vs GC thread.

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I'm just going to agree to disagree.

Yeah that's probably the best course, so I'll do the same (I probably shouldn't have joined the discussion).

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Deslock

Yeah that's probably the best course, so I'll do the same (I probably shouldn't have joined the discussion).

I'm glad you did join it, good to know I'm not the *only* one who tremendously prefers smaller, simpler, lighterweight over bigger, more overwrought, and heavier! Just part of a vanishingly small minority...

Again, here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ kick ass in the market, and light a fire under BMW's, Porsche's, Nissan's, and everyone else's arses.

But given the tastes/preferences of the masses, I'm not counting on it...

Most people (including many "enthusiasts") will just not comprehend how someone could prefer a 200 hp 2700 lb. car over a superior power/weight 300+ hp 3400+ lb. car.

[Mitch]

[GMU-BRZ]

So I'm bumping this because I was just browsing craigslist looking at some other options. One of the things I stumbled upon were used M3s at a much cheaper price than I expected. 02-05 models with 60-100k miles were running like 17-22k. So I understand that BMWs are notoriously expensive to repair, and I got the sense reading the first few pages of this thread that this model will have stuff starting going wrong right around this mile range that I'm looking at.

Anyone have any firsthand experience with BMWs of those model years? Im trying to get a sense of whether the savings in cost of the car would be completely offset by the increased maintenance and repair costs. Especially considering I can add $800 to my car payment and have Subaru cover all oil changes for the first 30k miles.

Any thoughts on this subject please let me know.

[ashtray]

Wait - add $800 to the price of the car for all of 3 oil changes??

First oil change is probably at 5k. (I'd do the first one much sooner.). After that it's probably 7,500-10,000 mile intervals per the factory.

As for the M3 - if you get one for $16k, better have another $16k in the bank "just in case". I don't see the M3 as a cheaper alternative to a BRZ Limited ($28-29k?), but probably equal after factoring in some repairs. Heck, recommended maintenance at certain mileage can be $3-4k! (and that's for a car that's running fine)

[Midnight Run]

weird.. my 05 E46M comp pkg.. doesn't cost that much in regular maintenance, and haven't had any repairs either. currently 79k miles still drives like new.

[GMU-BRZ]

Originally Posted by ashtray

Wait - add $800 to the price of the car for all of 3 oil changes??

First oil change is probably at 5k. (I'd do the first one much sooner.). After that it's probably 7,500-10,000 mile intervals per the factory.

As for the M3 - if you get one for $16k, better have another $16k in the bank "just in case". I don't see the M3 as a cheaper alternative to a BRZ Limited ($28-29k?), but probably equal after factoring in some repairs. Heck, recommended maintenance at certain mileage can be $3-4k! (and that's for a car that's running fine)

Actually all maintenance, I mis-typed. I got that package when I got my Impreza and I've liked it for the convenience.

[315FR-S]

read that whole thread. I'm a fan of bimmers. always have been. was a huge e46 fan...until i rode in an e36 m3 with nothing but suspension mods. that car was on rails!! if you guys are shopping soley for a track car check out a used e36 M. If you don't want something that old or if you want something new then BRZ/FRS it is (going off the reviews).

BMW may have shifted towards being upscale and trendy and what not but they started out building machines for the enthusiast. hence "the ultimate driving machine" motto. I agree they're trying to build brand prestige by targeting a "higher class" market, but i'd be willing to bet if they built a car for enthusiasts like toyota/subaru it would sell without consequence. Enthusiasts build the rep of car companies. the average consumer doesn't know how well a car handles, its 1/4 mile time, etc etc. theyre concerned with mpg, reliability, safety, etc. hence hyundai's growth and toyotas growth. enthusiasts talk. they review. they research. they recommend. they influence. toyota wants their enthusiasts back. its a smart move. subaru wants to expand/solidfy the enthusiast base they created with the wrx/sti. i hope this pushes other manufacturers into creating vehicles that are more "fun".

As for the thread...e46 or brz....ehhh like others have said.with the e46 you're GOING to have repairs/maintence costs and those will be expensive. the brz/frs is still unknown at this point. 99% of us have yet to drive one and we're going off reviews of pre-production models. im going to say BRZ/FRZ just because i want one.

[SHR3D]

while i understand many of yalls input, here is my understanding of badging:

when designing the next generation of a model vehicle, you do not change the platform of the vehicle...(that becomes a new model) and in that respect, bmw's are all messed up

an m3.. with a v8?? really? it weighs nearly as much as my 5liter truck /shrug. nice car? yes.. m3? not quite.. m5? surely... m6 even. in anycase, i dont think they planned that aspect out too well

maybe they should have tried something like keeping 3 series within the 3liter range, 4 series in the 4liter range, etc; seems obvious to me for identification purposes

perhaps they should build the 3003, or rather the 3K-3; a 300ftlb 3000cc compact sports coupe. weighing in at around 3000 lbs for $30,000..... this would be of course with all the new technologies which are becoming cheaper and vastly more powerful literally by the hour (no excuse for a $60,000 price tag any more; neither is the stitch pattern on your seat, im sorry) plastics are not heavy, nor expensive, are extremely durable; and, fit an finish is left to manufacturing, not material.

aesthetic design does not induce mass
unless you want your interior to look like jabba the hutt's ass
can you dig it?
(please forgive me if this is a family site, a short scolding by admin will correct this character flaw)

i digress;
i am torn between the e46 m3 and the frs/brz. in the end they will cost the same (i am a qualified technician)

comparatively; on one hand the m3 could remain mostly stock, while the 86 would need at least a small supercharger and a sick set of beef at the corners for my needs. obviously i can put out the extra 50ftlbs and slap on some wheels; but, will the drivetrain hold the added stress for reasonable periods of abuse?

on the other hand, to get the m3 to get 35mpg "on the regular"(read "other than occasionally") without living on some shepard scale mountainpass, would be damn near impossible. not to mention the extra 30 a month on insurance.

granted going from a 13mpg truck down to either car is not going to break the bank..

IF the 86 can take the extra stress of dropping the clutch at 300hp with fat rubber, then i can forsee bmw having some serious competition with any m class.... even when those m's become charged with FI. not at the drags, but, surely through the twisties

i think the interior of the 86 is hideous; and while i dont find the e46 m3s interior particularly displeasing, i find the e36 much more suiting. if only the e36 and e46 could merge into some sort of midrange performance sexual deviant just asking you to punch it (in the back of the head) when you pull out (from her Woahhhthere... parking spot of course *coughcough*)[again, plz insert admin warning for slight modification to my conversational techniques]

while, i would rather not tie her up with zip-ties and gut her(im talking about cars people! gimme a break!), i dont mind hammering out the sharp bits(ok, ok; might be talking about a woman here)

[Godzpeed]

I would never sell or give up my E46 M3! I've had it since 02 and its now already 10 years old and its my oldest car in my collection, but its still probably the best driving car I've ever owned.
and who ever says that car isn't reliable and how expensive maintenance is etc etc probably never even owned one.

the 86/BRZ can't be compared with it no matter what.

[Alphaghost]

As far as e46 M3 youre forgetting the valve jobs that are recommded at every 30k for $1500 and better make sure sub frame is good or youre looking at thousands of bucks in repairs. Ms are very nice if you stay on top of maintenance but that is not cheap unless you do the work yourself or have a indy shop. My e36 was not bad at all to maintain, parts cheaper than e46 and car is very easy to work on. I would go with Fr-s or BRZ for lower overall cost of ownership, if money is no object go M3, but then again if money was no object there are better options out there nowadays

[SHR3D]

i personally would be doing all the work myself on either car. cost is not the issue in this case

fr-s=$25,000(new+25k mile warranty)
e46 m3=$19,000(used)+$5000(immediate repairs)=$24,000

a 25k mile warranty is garbage and driving out of my way to the dealership just to sit for at least an hour when i could do the same thing in my front yard in 15 minutes or less (including smoke break) is just no argument.

Originally Posted by SHR3D

will the drivetrain [of the 86] hold the added stress [of forced induction and wide tires] for reasonable periods of abuse?

i know there is no comparison between the two when it comes to after market power.. but i dont need a 1000hp racecar, i need a 300-400hp daily driver that i can take to the track on occasion.

the 86 gets sideways too easy for that low of power, which tells me there are serious traction issues. i dont like traction issues, i want alot more grip and a bit more power. i know the subie crowd was having some trouble a few year ago trying to lock up, either theyd peel out or blow a case; and thats with AWD. idk if these issues have been solved

now transfer all the tq to the rear, add 8inch wide tires, a supercharger, and lauch at 3.5grand and clearly you can see a potential for disaster; for, the applied tq on the drivetrain is much higher than the rating of the motor

i know it can produce the power i need, but will it wake up the next day after a good beating or spew its innards onto my driveway?

Subaru’s promised 300 HP will be present in the STI version

but this will be on a different transmission and possibly, different rear end; not to mention the probable $35k+ pricetag



nowhere have i read this being an issue with the m3 and it is the only thing stopping me from buying an 86

[Turbowned]

I wouldn't feel comfortable buying a used E46 M3 unless I made at least $50k/yr after taxes. The added fuel and consumables cost just make the fantastic M3 too rich for my blood, as with any 10-yr-old German car. Same with the 2003 Audi RS 6 I saw for $22k. 450bhp, 40-valve bi-turbo 4.2L V8 (520bhp with just a re-flash), 8 piston front brakes, all-wheel-drive, leather and alcantara everywhere, and gorgeous metallic paint. 96k miles and full service records; original MSRP of $93k (well over $100k in today's dollars). However it gets 15mpg and when it comes time to change 9.5 quarts of Mobil 1, replace the 255/35ZR19 Michelin Pilot Sports, do a brake job on those 8-pot stoppers, or replace the timing belt every 40k miles, bend the f#%k over! Just because the sale price is cheap doesn't make the car affordable. If it were to be a second car and not a daily driver, this would concern me less, mind you.

Again, the M3 is absolutely brilliant and I would very much like to own one, but I know I can enjoy the FR-S/BRZ with a much smaller budget. If you can afford the upkeep on one, I very much envy you!