Is Technology Making Cars Worse?

[RaceR]

Just watched this video:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h_IcLn4JSg&feature=g-all-u"]Is Technology Making Cars Worse? - ROAD TESTAMENT - YouTube[/ame]

Chris Harris is in it btw!

Anyway..
Is Technology Making Cars Worse?

[Shagaliscious]

I would agree to an extent, but here in the U.S., the driving test is a joke, and it's basically designed so anyone can pass it. So there are plenty of people out there without the slightest clue on how to merge, or signal a lane change, or just drive in between the damn lines. For that fact I am glad they have all this technology, so long as they allow me to turn it off

[Superhatch]

I have owned mainly early 90's Honda's for the reasons they talked about. The E90 M3, modified 4th gen civics, and 240 sx's that I have owned have all leaned towards driving passion rather than technology.

The BRZ is literally the first car that's been on the market in the last decade that really seems to embody what I loved about those cars.

[Superhatch]

Originally Posted by Shagaliscious

I am glad they have all this technology, so long as they allow me to turn it off

[Asterisked Accolade]

I watched this as well today. I could write pages and pages on this topic, but to sum up i'd say-- for sports car fans, yes technology is beginning to get in the way and make things worse.

[mclevin]

Classic example r35gtr

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Asterisked Accolade

I watched this as well today. I could write pages and pages on this topic, but to sum up i'd say-- for sports car fans, yes technology is beginning to get in the way and make things worse.

I agree!

I think average people will get much better cars due to technology.
The typical sports cars on the other hand seems to be more numb these days..
Powerwise, consumtion wise, safty wise etc.. they are better.
Driving feel and fun-factor seems to be lacking in several of the modern cars. I think that is the reason why the GT86 have gotten so much praise from automotive journalists. It is back to the basics, to the roots of performance cars. And that is a good thing!

There is no doubt technology makes performance cars faster tough..

[86'd]

I know I'll be splitting hairs here and I know what they're really talking about are electronic aides (more specifically transmissions) when they say technology, but the BRZ is as technically advanced from an engineering standpoint with DI, it's auto transmission, and as electronically aided with Electric Steering, ABS, VDC, TC and the like.

Not to mention the engineering that it took to get a car like the BRZ's CD so low. So I really don't get how the BRZ is any more raw than say my WRX, or a Mustang, because I don't think it is. It just has a better chassis.

Now compared to a GTR or even a Focus ST, that has torque control, and overboost, then maybe...

If we're just talking about manual transmissions vs auto, or different sport modes, like on the EVO or STI, then yeah, I'd always prefer a MT. But I really like technology and things like different modes. Granted "Auto Sport Mode" seems to work well in most cars, but I like the choice and messing with things like that.

Comparing a car like the GTR vs an M3. I'd most likely choose the M3 because all of the tech in the GTR makes the engagement a bit numb. Tech makes winning easier, but at the cost of "feel" and IMO enjoyment.

I think people want to be supermen behind the wheel and cars with a lot of tech make that happen. And although that's cool and especially it makes fast cars safer, I'm more at home with a machine I can control, rather that it controlling itself.

[madfast]

funny how they made no mention of government laws causing manufacturers to do what they do... electric steering is a DIRECT result of tightening fuel economy standards. the rise of the AT/DCT is also very much mpg related considering 7 speeds are normal, 8 speeds are becoming common, and we are on the verge of a ZF 9 speed AT (with a 10 speed in development). not to mention the proliferation of CVTs...

traction/stability control is for safety, and most sporty cars allow you to turn it completely off so there is NO argument against that. ABS is also something 99.9% of the population should want.

anyways, while i do agree with almost everything they say, it seems they completely overlook the external factors that affect manufacturers' decisions.... and chris harris is from the uk. over there they can legally drive ariel atoms, caterhams, radicals, etc. on the road. if we could do that in the US, i wouldnt care how detached road cars are, i'd get a weekend track toy that i can drive there with, and i'll get my fun that way...

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by madfast

funny how they made no mention of government laws causing manufacturers to do what they do... electric steering is a DIRECT result of tightening fuel economy standards. the rise of the AT/DCT is also very much mpg related considering 7 speeds are normal, 8 speeds are becoming common, and we are on the verge of a ZF 9 speed AT (with a 10 speed in development). not to mention the proliferation of CVTs...

Not really, there are easier ways to get fuel economy. Targeting parasitic load is nice because it increases max engine power available, but from a cost perspective perhaps adding an extra gear into the transmission is cheaper than swapping belt drive for electric motors everywhere.

Electric steering always gets attacked, but there are different electric steering systems and often times the electric steering is just a hydraulic system with electric steering pump.

Fuel economy standards aren't what's killing MT, imo, the demand is just dead. The way cars are tested for fuel economy is bad for MTs though, and necessitates crappy gearing (for fuel economy) (part of that is also market demand, sports car buyers like their short cruise gears for "good response"). Porsche is making their 7 speed manual, which is awesome. If Honda/Toyota weren't such cheapasses they wouldn't have only 5 speed transmissions available when Hyundai has 6 standard. More gears is a good thing, as long as they remember that there are people who want manual transmissions. Unfortunately, people who buy Porsches probably go for DCT since it's faster and all, so all we can hope is that there is enough demand to keep MT alive.

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

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Not really, there are easier ways to get fuel economy. Targeting parasitic load is nice because it increases max engine power available, but from a cost perspective perhaps adding an extra gear into the transmission is cheaper than swapping belt drive for electric motors everywhere.

Electric steering always gets attacked, but there are different electric steering systems and often times the electric steering is just a hydraulic system with electric steering pump.

Fuel economy standards aren't what's killing MT, imo, the demand is just dead. The way cars are tested for fuel economy is bad for MTs though, and necessitates crappy gearing (for fuel economy) (part of that is also market demand, sports car buyers like their short cruise gears for "good response"). Porsche is making their 7 speed manual, which is awesome. If Honda/Toyota weren't such cheapasses they wouldn't have only 5 speed transmissions available when Hyundai has 6 standard. More gears is a good thing, as long as they remember that there are people who want manual transmissions. Unfortunately, people who buy Porsches probably go for DCT since it's faster and all, so all we can hope is that there is enough demand to keep MT alive.

I agree with a lot of this.

Part of the reason demand is dead is because as much as we dread it, most buyers are not car enthusiasts in the least. Many people view all driving as a tedious chore. And so most people don't even want to bother learning manual out of pure laziness.

The enthusiast crowd is now more anti-manual, because automatic transmissions (and dual clutch trannies) have erased the speed advantage that manuals once had. So, if you're a speed freak, you'll probably opt for auto to get better track times.

Manuals are now for people who simply enjoy their cars more that way. People like me. And that number's growing smaller by the day. Ferrari and Lambo stopped selling manuals altogether due to customer demand.

[eriktherod]

Technology is great, as long as it doesn't get in the way. Unfortunately, this is more than just cars, it's everything. Remember calling companies and getting a person instead of an automated system? Then you have these new automated systems that try to do it via voice commands and often you end up getting frustrated and routed to the operator anyways. That's the kind of that gets in the way. On the other hand, you have on-line bill pay which is awesome, trust me trying to pay bills on the phone sucks (and feels insecure).

I would say that the economy mode of newer cars gets in the way and is almost intentionally difficult to disable to get proper emissions/fuel economy. While for some people, they like the new "green" indicators and ECON buttons (my dad loves that on his 2012 CR-V), it would annoy me.

Now stuff like electronic power-steering, traction control, and the pretty amazing automatic transmissions are pieces of technology that I think are great in modern cars like the FR-S. Unfortunately, there are bad examples of this same technology with cars that have terrible turn radius, almost worthless traction control, and garbage slush-boxes.

At the end of the day, it's how the technology is applied and does it work for you or against you. Some cases like traction control are based on the situation. If it's rainy or otherwise inclimate outside, or maybe I'm just doing something stupid that day, I don't mind the car keeping me in line. Now if I was at the track/AutoX and trying to test the limits, I wouldn't want them in the way. Options like that should always be able to be turned off, but the problem is some people don't understand that they should probably keep them on in most cases.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by shadoquad

...And so most people don't even want to bother learning manual out of pure laziness.....

I agree with most of what you said ^above^ except this portion I quoted here.

Perhaps you didn't mean it this way but...

"Back in the day" most non-enthusiasts learned to drive a manual out of necessity, not desire. For 99% of drivers, it was no different than learning to do math without a calculator or washing dishes without a dishwasher. It was part of the price of admission.

The bottom line is there is no real "reason" to learn to drive a manual any longer, at least in some areas of the world, any more than there is to know how to program a VCR, or how to saddle a horse. It is a "desire" to learn it, not a "reason", but it is certainly no longer a requirement to be able to drive.

I'm not saying the skills are equal, or even that folks shouldn't learn how, I'm just saying not having the desire to do it does not make you lazy.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by 86'd

I know I'll be splitting hairs here and I know what they're really talking about are electronic aides (more specifically transmissions) when they say technology, but the BRZ is as technically advanced from an engineering standpoint with DI, it's auto transmission, and as electronically aided with Electric Steering, ABS, VDC, TC and the like.

Not to mention the engineering that it took to get a car like the BRZ's CD so low. So I really don't get how the BRZ is any more raw than say my WRX, or a Mustang, because I don't think it is. It just has a better chassis.
.

When talking about technology it is the whole package. Not just electronic aids. In general the technology that is being questioned is stuff like:
-Electronic steering instead of hydraulic
-Automatic gearboxes
-Electronic steering aids that can not be turned properly off. (getting more and more common)
-ABS (yes, most appreciate it. I know I do. But would be nice with a button to turn it off for some track fun and braking when going sideways..
-Turbocharged engines with duller response and often less exiting noise.
-The lack of proper LSDs. Some cars now have an open "e-diff". Thereby excluding the need for optional LSD. Atleast for average joe. Not the enthusiast.
-WEIGHT! or maybe I should say safety? (yes, not directly technologys fault, but since we have gotten more and better technologically on safety equipment. All that stuff have become standard requirements. Thus making cars weigh more)
-Focus on consumption. (again, not directly technologys fault) In several countries Co2 and other parameters on the engine and car are triggering high taxes. Making small displacement turbo cars more attractive with their good performance and low co2 emissions. Thereby making the high reving NAs, and high displacement engines obsolete. .. Some call it evolution. I call it the result of stupid taxes)
-Electronic stuff making cars harder to work on for the average car enthusiast.

Probably more stuff that could be questioned.. like, the safe understeer in most cars.. etc etc..
Again. Im not saying technology is bad. I welcome it! I love it. (atleast some of it)
When looking at several sporty cars, or proper sports cars, the technology in many cases seem to make them more dull... less connected.. Less mechanical.. Less pure.
...atleast in my opinion..