200hp / 2700lbs - Really?

[SneakyMilo]

Originally Posted by Aki

Well firstly, 20-somethings wouldn't remember when the A86 came out. If somebody's 29 now, they'd be born in 1982. The car went from 1983-87, so they'd be tiny kids. AE86 typically appeals to older people because of that, in their 30s.

While I don't disagree with your math, I do think you are making a mistake. A car exists for long after the period it is produced. I wasn't old enough to remember the AE86 when you could buy one new. However, when I got my license it was old enough to be affordable for me, thus I was interested in it. Look at all the retro cars that are in the market today. I would wager that a lot of the owners weren't old enough to remember a 70's era Camero when they were new yet for some reason they really like the new '10 SS.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong because these figures change over time, but the last I read the average Scion buyer is 26 years old. You definitely do not see many people much past 30 buying them.

Originally Posted by Aki

Secondly, you're assuming that just because somebody has more disposable income, that they'd want to spend on it a much faster car. Sports car sales are declining if anything, which doesn't validate that assumption. It's more people in their early 20s that care about "I need this to beat car X." You get older, you get mortgages, kids, etc. Hence practicality comes into the equation.

Which is once again - exactly why I said that Toyota/Scion wouldn't be smart if they put the car in the 30K base price range. At that price you probably lose a good chunk of 20-somethings (not all, but definitely a good number) who would have a very hard time justifying the price tag.

Originally Posted by Aki

Thirdly, if you're talking about people that want an updated AE86, the AE86 was never a fast car. The spirit of the car was that it's light and tossable, not that it'd beat a 'Stang on the drag. 250-260hp car isn't an AE86-successor anymore, that's encroaching Celica/Supra territory. From a brand identity perspective, it doesn't make sense.

The concept of sports car has changed over time. Numbers that once qualified as "performance" now don't even cut it for a base model economy car. If Toyota wants this car to be successful as a sports car they will have to increase the power. The Miata already has the market for slow yet great handling cars locked down. They are marketing this car as the spiritual successor of the original not a carbon copy. Note: The horsepower of the car has absolutely no bearing on how "tossable" a car is unless that horsepower comes at the cost of increased weight or a front weight bias.

I was never trying to say that the new FT needs to be a drag car. Just have enough power output to be able to really enjoy the great handling characteristics that Toyota is bragging about.

From a brand identity perspective it makes perfect sense. This is Toyota's return to the sports car market. There are no celicas, there are no supras so you aren't stealing sales from yourself, plus you already have a great low end platform (tC) that you don't want to cannibalize sales from - speaking from the perspective of the US market since I can't comment intelligently about other markets.


Maybe I am looking at this issue too much from my own perspective. I know that if the only option is a 180-200 hp N/A engine with a base price of 22K I will not be buying it since I am not in the market for a relatively slow yet good handling sports car. If I was, I would have already bought an RX-8 or Miata.


Just my thoughts.

-Sneaky

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Aki

Well firstly, 20-somethings wouldn't remember when the A86 came out. If somebody's 29 now, they'd be born in 1982. The car went from 1983-87, so they'd be tiny kids. AE86 typically appeals to older people because of that, in their 30s.

Secondly, you're assuming that just because somebody has more disposable income, that they'd want to spend on it a much faster car. Sports car sales are declining if anything, which doesn't validate that assumption. It's more people in their early 20s that care about "I need this to beat car X." You get older, you get mortgages, kids, etc. Hence practicality comes into the equation.

Thirdly, if you're talking about people that want an updated AE86, the AE86 was never a fast car. The spirit of the car was that it's light and tossable, not that it'd beat a 'Stang on the drag. 250-260hp car isn't an AE86-successor anymore, that's encroaching Celica/Supra territory. From a brand identity perspective, it doesn't make sense.

Most cars are gaining more weight and power from their predecessors.
Look at the last Skyline GT-R R34 and the GT-R R35. R34 is almost 200hp less and 500lb lighter than R35.

[dalli]

As long as this car comes out with 200hp/2.7k or 2.8k weight(lbs)

I will be happy and still buy it.

If it comes with turbo, I will be more likely to get the turbo version.

Hoping for at least 250-~275 hp @ at least 2800 weight ( turbo)

I don't really care, I know that I will buy this car in the future.

[FT-86GOD]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

Oh sorry I didn't really write that clearly
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the engines. The engines were always great. I'm talking more the interior of the cabin. Iv test driven a brand new hsv v series clubsport, and there were bits and bobs rattling all over the inside. And the handbrake was wobbly, and the trim that fits between the dash and the door almost fell of when I opend the door. Granted that coulda been just that one, but it still turned me off. Iv noticed same for the previous models.
Performance wise, my mate whose a cop really loves both the falcon and the commodore and sais that the high speed stability is pretty Fuckin good

The handbrake on all holdens are terrible!!! Dunno bout Ford but the holden handbrake is set up on a cog set up or something unlike Japanese handbrakes... So its not functional when driving... If u pull the handbrake up to initiate a drift its like throwing coins in a lawnmower.... Apparently can be modified but i dont know how.... The interior in Fords and Holdens r cheapish but they r getting better... And yeah the sedans r stable at high speed but the utes have no down force... At 250km/h my ute felt like the back end was gonna let go...

[70NYD]

and your lucky it didnt.
if you plan on going that fast again throw a wing on the back of it
or a lip wing on the end of your tray cover (something like a torana i had in mind, they are actually affective)

[FT-86GOD]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

and your lucky it didnt.
if you plan on going that fast again throw a wing on the back of it
or a lip wing on the end of your tray cover (something like a torana i had in mind, they are actually affective)

Hahahaha no way... Im an anti-wing man. I've always hated wings. And most Jap cars come with aftermarket underbody diffusers and downforce plates that do a similar job anyway.. Just wish u could get stuff like that for Aussie cars....

[70NYD]

ugh i hate spoilers as well well then go and make a underbody diffuser

[Batangpilipino]

i agree on this post. but can someone tells me when exactly theyre going to release the car becoz as up now im trying to hold my money to buy a new car. im thinking to buy the honda crz for daily but now that i heard the ft86 will be out soon so im kinda struggling whether to buy crz or juz wait for ft86. and how much they want for ft86?

Originally Posted by Rickster

So I've been lurking a lot on this site, almost a year now, but been reading a lot of your posts in the meantime. I see a lot of people guessing it's going to be about 200hp and 2700lbs.

Well, here's my 2 cents, and please let me know your thoughts guys.. If this car ends up being 200hp, it would essentially be in a class verse the GTI, the Genesis Coupe 2.0T, and Miata. While that seems practical, I personally think (and HOPE), Toyota develops 2 motors for this vehicle. A 200hp motor, and a 250hp motor. I feel if Toyota does this, they can compete in 2 segments, the Miata/GTI/Genesis 2.0T, as well as the 370z, RX8, and Genesis V6.

Now if it's a 200hp version, with 2700lbs, standard 6spd manual, I'm assuming a 0-60 of a hair under 6 seconds. Maybe around 5.9. Now if we have a 250hp version, and lets say 2800lbs, we're talking about a 0-60 of 5 seconds flat. A perfect competitor for the 370z and the Genesis V6. We also have to consider, this vehicle will be coming out as a 2012 production, and the 370z and many other vehicles will be coming out with their successor in 2013, so this car can't just be comparable to the current market, but has to outperform the current versions of vehicle in order to stay competitive with their successors.

All in all, my opinion, and hope is, 2 motors being offered in the FT-86. A motor aimed at 200hp to compete against your Civic Si, Genesis 2.0T, GTI, and Miata, and a motor closer to 250hp (with an extra 100lbs or so), aimed to take on the 370z, the Genesis V6, and RX-8.

On a side note.. Imagine a 250hp, 2800lb Toyota running lets say, 11psi. An ECU reflash, an intake, an exhaust, downpipe, and upgraded intercooler.. Imagine how blistering fast that would be. Toyota has the potential to make a car as tuner friendly as the Supra, and seeing as how they've been out of the sports car market for a couple years now, and this will be their only sports car (if under the Toyota brand), this car could quickly become a big hit.

So, saying all this.. Opinions? Comments?

[FT-86GOD]

Originally Posted by Batangpilipino

i agree on this post. but can someone tells me when exactly theyre going to release the car becoz as up now im trying to hold my money to buy a new car. im thinking to buy the honda crz for daily but now that i heard the ft86 will be out soon so im kinda struggling whether to buy crz or juz wait for ft86. and how much they want for ft86?

Do a quick search through this and other threads and ull find its been discussed more than enough in regards to price etc...

As for holding of or not... U'll be stupid not to...... If u hold onto ur coin til the release u'll be one of the first to own and will be the new cool kid on the block..

[nate89]

Originally Posted by Batangpilipino

i agree on this post. but can someone tells me when exactly theyre going to release the car becoz as up now im trying to hold my money to buy a new car. im thinking to buy the honda crz for daily but now that i heard the ft86 will be out soon so im kinda struggling whether to buy crz or juz wait for ft86. and how much they want for ft86?

It's coming out on your birthday! Just for you

Also, the CRZ is a much better car than the FT86. They're super-fast and get awesome gas milage!
















If you can't smell the BS from a mile away, then pull your head out of your butt. Your becoming immune to the smell lol

[enc0re]

Since all signs point to it being a Scion in the States; even if there's an up level engine abroad, I doubt we'd get it. Scion is big on monospec. If it's a Scion, I bet we'll get the choice between manual/auto and three levels of dealer installed stereo. Plus a $2000 set of dealer installed TRD wheels.

[NESW20]

Originally Posted by enc0re

Since all signs point to it being a Scion in the States; even if there's an up level engine abroad, I doubt we'd get it. Scion is big on monospec. If it's a Scion, I bet we'll get the choice between manual/auto and three levels of dealer installed stereo. Plus a $2000 set of dealer installed TRD wheels.

you, sir, are wrong. there are no official signs that point to this car being a scion in the US. it's all stupid speculation and BS rumors.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by SneakyMilo

While I don't disagree with your math, I do think you are making a mistake. A car exists for long after the period it is produced. I wasn't old enough to remember the AE86 when you could buy one new. However, when I got my license it was old enough to be affordable for me, thus I was interested in it. Look at all the retro cars that are in the market today. I would wager that a lot of the owners weren't old enough to remember a 70's era Camero when they were new yet for some reason they really like the new '10 SS.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong because these figures change over time, but the last I read the average Scion buyer is 26 years old. You definitely do not see many people much past 30 buying them.



Which is once again - exactly why I said that Toyota/Scion wouldn't be smart if they put the car in the 30K base price range. At that price you probably lose a good chunk of 20-somethings (not all, but definitely a good number) who would have a very hard time justifying the price tag.



The concept of sports car has changed over time. Numbers that once qualified as "performance" now don't even cut it for a base model economy car. If Toyota wants this car to be successful as a sports car they will have to increase the power. The Miata already has the market for slow yet great handling cars locked down. They are marketing this car as the spiritual successor of the original not a carbon copy. Note: The horsepower of the car has absolutely no bearing on how "tossable" a car is unless that horsepower comes at the cost of increased weight or a front weight bias.

I was never trying to say that the new FT needs to be a drag car. Just have enough power output to be able to really enjoy the great handling characteristics that Toyota is bragging about.

From a brand identity perspective it makes perfect sense. This is Toyota's return to the sports car market. There are no celicas, there are no supras so you aren't stealing sales from yourself, plus you already have a great low end platform (tC) that you don't want to cannibalize sales from - speaking from the perspective of the US market since I can't comment intelligently about other markets.


Maybe I am looking at this issue too much from my own perspective. I know that if the only option is a 180-200 hp N/A engine with a base price of 22K I will not be buying it since I am not in the market for a relatively slow yet good handling sports car. If I was, I would have already bought an RX-8 or Miata.


Just my thoughts.

-Sneaky

I think your analysis is spot on -- hopefully Toyota will be thinking along these lines as well.

Yes, it needs to be tossable but also quick enough to at least give folks looking at other sports cars a reason to reflect upon where they want to spend their money.

It won't be on the FT-86 if the best it can do is barely keep up with a Miata.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

If this things doesn't have FI, there's no way I'm putting it into my garage. 300hp cars are everywhere (including my garage). The Scion Tc already exists......let's not make another one Toyota.

When did Scion tC came RWD stock? Was I living in dream land?

K, let me ask you this. When was last time Toyota made less than 2800lbs FR car sold in US? iirc even in RWD section MR-S was pulled off from US in '05.

By all mean I see that you want 300hp plus from this car, but please don't mistaken this car to grocery getter car cuz it's doesn't have 300hp.