Discussion on gas stations

[Silver Cervy]

I'll start off with a bit of a story:

Last week I had a lot of bad luck with my BRZ. On Thursday my battery went dead for no good reason leading me to believe that it had gone bad, which meant I had to miss work and take it in to the dealership. It had indeed gone bad and I got it replaced under warranty (the only good part of this story). Two days later I'm trying to get to work again and the car can't get ignition, I heard it trying to crank but it would just sputter out. With the engine being completely stock and the only thing being changed recently was the battery, I immediately assumed that it was causing the issue. I had a tow truck take it back to the dealership while a friend drove me to work. I was certain that it was some sort of electrical issue with the new battery that was causing the spark plugs to not fire, or maybe a bad alternator, but the real culprit ended up being something completely unrelated. As it turned out, I had filled up the tank the night before at a Shell station really close to my house, and apparently the gas tanks there had been heavily diluted with water, so much so that according to the Subaru technician about 70% of what was in my tank was water. As you can guess this meant that my entire fuel system had been corrupted and a lot of labor was needed to fix it, which of course meant a big service bill. I'm still without my car and having my friend drive me around, and I'm currently trying to get the Shell station to admit fault and pay for my expenses but they are being difficult. They claimed that they checked the fuel 2 days prior to the incident and that it checked out, and when I asked if there had been any other reports or complaints from customers that day, they wouldn't answer. And as the dealership won't release the car without receiving payment, I'm in a real bind right now.

That's not the point of this whole post, though. One thing I remembered about my stop at the Shell station was that the fuel was pumping very slow. I tried one pump and it was coming out so slowly that after at least 2 minutes I had only gotten 0.3 of a gallon, so I moved to another one which pumped faster but still slower than normal. I did a bit of searching to see if this was related to the diluted fuel or just a coincidence, and I read one thread where someone claimed that the pumps have a sort of "dilution detection system" which is basically an apparatus around the tube that expands when it detects water or some other foreign liquid and restricts the flow of the fuel. I don't know what to think about this theory because I've dealt with slow pumps in the past and never had my car break down on me, so I'm wondering if anyone here knows if this is true or not, or can actually explain why some pumps are slower than others.

I've also heard other conspiracies about gas stations, like how the advertised "cheap" price is only given on half of the pumps in a station, and that those pumps are programmed to flow a bit slower than the others so that people will be less inclined to use them, and instead use the "faster" pumps with the higher price. Another one I've heard is that many stations purposefully dilute their fuel to a certain degree to save money, which wouldn't surprise me at all if it turned out to be true.

What do you guys think? Any of you have an interesting gas station tale?

[cdrazic93]

Ok not quite THAT interesting, but ive noticed everytime I would fill up with shell (every now and then) I would get a CEL. Would go away after I would drain the tank and go fill it up with chevron.

Moral of the story; I dont like shell. Neither does my car.

[cdrazic93]

Also, go get a statement from your dealership in writing, get a sample of that gas and threaten to take shell to court. It'd be tough, but you already have a certified mechanic at a dealership saying your fuel system got wrecked.

[gravitylover]

If formal complaints have been lodged by other people that had a similar problem they should be on file with your states dept of weights and measures.

[strat61caster]

It's always worth getting a receipt for gas and hanging onto it until you're sure the gas is burning well.

http://thegarage.jalopnik.com/why-yo...get-1648937540

I'm fortunate in being around gas stations that are heavily trafficked, less chance for fuckery.

[Tcoat]

Bad gas is a risk at ANY station or brand not restricted to just one. It happens. Your best chance of reducing that risk is to use stations that see a lot of traffic all the time.


70% Water? Really? I would like to see how they determined that. You wouldn't have got a block from the station so it would have had to be really really close. Clearing the system would be relatively easy since they could just pump out the tank and disconnect the lines to drain out the rest. Obviously you had a water issue but I am not convinced that the tech didn't over state the severity of it.


I can not speak for NC but most places have some pretty strict requirements for checking the fuel in their storage tank so for them to say it was checked 2 days before was probably accurate. Believe it or not every State/Province will have a legal limit of how much water is allowed to be in the gas. That is how common it is.


Gas pumps are exactly that, pumps. Some are slower than others for many reasons and none of those involve scams. I have never in my life seen stations with different prices for the same level of fuel on different pumps. It would be a very poor scam to try this as people would figure it out in a hurry.


To the best of my knowledge and a quick search through official sites there is no water detection system in existence that slows down a pump if there is water present. What would the practical application of slowing down the pump even be?


Purposely diluting gas with water would just be plain stupid. The water can cause more expensive issues with the pumps than any slight increase in profit would warrant. Yes, water happens and yes a certain amount is even permitted but to add water for the pennies made a gallon would not be worth the risk. No matter what an issue is you can find somebody on the internet that says it is a conspiracy and can make their point seem very convincing unless you read around what they are saying.


You may have a tough time going after Shell. Most gas stations are independently owned and operated and even though they sell Shell gas that does not mean that Shell is responsible for them nor their actions. If the station can produce inspection records (real or not) and a test of the fuel in their tanks comes up OK then you are pretty much screwed as far as action goes.

[Dadhawk]

What @Tcoat said....

In addition, if you are really concerned, it's easy enough to test. Fuel has smaller molecules than water or debris so there are lots of ways to strain test it. This is common in small plane aviation. Fuel tanks are tested before every flight for water using a strainer similar to this GATS Jar.

Nearly all fuel has some level of water in it. Just condensation in the storage tank or your fuel tank will add water. That is why it is normal practice to always fill the tank of a small plane before you park it overnight.

Parked for a few hours with half a tank, condensation will form, and water being heavier, will separate into the bottom of the tanks. What happens in a small plane is that you'll have enough good fuel to run for start-up and take-off, then you will hit water in the lines at just the "perfect" time for a very short flight.

If the pump did have a "water detection system" it would most likely be a "water straining system" because it would not be that difficult to engineer following the same process as the fuel tester I mentioned above, or a fuel strainer which also filters out water and other solid contaminants.

As @Tcoat mentioned the real risk comes from using low turn-over stations. They are the ones most likely to have half full tanks underground where condensation has a chance to introduce water. That's a real risk in aviation if you fly "back country" or to a rural airport with only a handful of flights and fuel purchases a week.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

As @Tcoat mentioned the real risk comes from using low turn-over stations. They are the ones most likely to have half full tanks underground where condensation has a chance to introduce water. That's a real risk in aviation if you fly "back country" or to a rural airport with only a handful of flights and fuel purchases a week.

And...
We require Premium fuel which is only 11% of the fuel sold. This means that the fuel sits in the underground tank much longer that Regular fuel which in turn increases the risk of water in the tank (not to mention the decrease in octane as it sits there).

[Silver Cervy]

Thanks for all the concern guys but I'll somehow get this squared away. I had the technicians log a sample of the fuel the first time they called me, so I'll have that to show the station along with my bill.

@Tcoat I was able to get back that night because I filled up with just less than a quarter of a tank left and then drove home straight after, so the water didn't have time to settle. Draining the system is simple enough but the technician mentioned how they'd have to get someone to come pick up the bad fuel and dispose of it and that would the most expensive thing. They're also replacing the fuel pump which in this scenario is not under warranty. Once I see the fuel sample I'll let you know if the technician exaggerated or not.

The gas station I went to has been my regular for years, and it's one of the busiest ones I've seen in the area. A lot of trucks stop there in the early hours of the day and there are times where people are literally queued up to get a pump. I was very shocked when I found out about the fuel because I had always thought of this station as reliable.

Once I have the bill and fuel sample, my mission will be to get them to admit to other customer complaints and then I'll have 'em.

[mazeroni]

Originally Posted by Silver Cervy

I'll start off with a bit of a story:

I've also heard other conspiracies about gas stations, like how the advertised "cheap" price is only given on half of the pumps in a station, and that those pumps are programmed to flow a bit slower than the others so that people will be less inclined to use them, and instead use the "faster" pumps with the higher price. Another one I've heard is that many stations purposefully dilute their fuel to a certain degree to save money, which wouldn't surprise me at all if it turned out to be true.

What do you guys think? Any of you have an interesting gas station tale?

Hey! I lived in Matthews until August before moving to Nashville. Nice area. I always went to the Exxon on the corner of Mint Hill Road and and 74 south, just before the interstate, and the Exxon on E Independence at the corner of Unionville - Indian Trail Road. Never had any complaints and now I always use Exxon stations - the bigger ones in high traffic areas.

I really don't trust the smaller stations.

I can't image a large conglomerate like Shell or Exxon wouldn't have strict systems in place to ensure only their branded gas is being sold at stations with their name. But....

The smaller ones? Dunno.

The margin on gasoline for the station owner is like $.01 per gallon, so possibly there are stations that do this, at least to a small degree. A station holds 6,000 gallons of fuel, or somewhere around there, right? If you dilute a few hundred gallons, that would be a lot more profit, and considering modern cars have fuel systems that will compensate to a degree to the kind of gas in tank, well, who would ever know.

Maybe someone didn't know the station tank hadn't been filled, or they were waiting for a delivery and went ahead and put water in. Maybe you just got there at the wrong time.

Don't want to fuel the conspiracy though.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Silver Cervy

Thanks for all the concern guys but I'll somehow get this squared away. I had the technicians log a sample of the fuel the first time they called me, so I'll have that to show the station along with my bill.

@Tcoat I was able to get back that night because I filled up with just less than a quarter of a tank left and then drove home straight after, so the water didn't have time to settle. Draining the system is simple enough but the technician mentioned how they'd have to get someone to come pick up the bad fuel and dispose of it and that would the most expensive thing. They're also replacing the fuel pump which in this scenario is not under warranty. Once I see the fuel sample I'll let you know if the technician exaggerated or not.

The gas station I went to has been my regular for years, and it's one of the busiest ones I've seen in the area. A lot of trucks stop there in the early hours of the day and there are times where people are literally queued up to get a pump. I was very shocked when I found out about the fuel because I had always thought of this station as reliable.

Once I have the bill and fuel sample, my mission will be to get them to admit to other customer complaints and then I'll have 'em.

Not trying to debate with you and of course I don't have all the info but if you filled up with a 1/4 tank and your fuel was 70% water then you either had a pile of water in the tank to start with or you filled up with 100% water. The math doesn't work and the car should not have run at all since the very act of pumping gas in would stir up any water. It wouldn't be settled out on the bottom of the tank until the car had sat still for an hour or so but you would still have had issues if in fact it was 70% water. Unless it was a long term thing the fuel pump would not have been damaged in any way by water passing through it so not sure why it had to be replaced. Disposal of 10 gallons of water contaminated fuel would cost about $50 - $100 max so that shouldn't be a huge expense.


The sample will be telling and the bill will show you bought gas there but good luck getting them to say that other people had issues! Let us know how you make out this is indeed an interesting one.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

Hey! I lived in Matthews until August before moving to Nashville. Nice area. I always went to the Exxon on the corner of Mint Hill Road and and 74 south, just before the interstate, and the Exxon on E Independence at the corner of Unionville - Indian Trail Road. Never had any complaints and now I always use Exxon stations - the bigger ones in high traffic areas.

I really don't trust the smaller stations.

I can't image a large conglomerate like Shell or Exxon wouldn't have strict systems in place to ensure only their branded gas is being sold at stations with their name. But....

The smaller ones? Dunno.

The margin on gasoline for the station owner is like $.01 per gallon, so possibly there are stations that do this, at least to a small degree. A station holds 6,000 gallons of fuel, or somewhere around there, right? If you dilute a few hundred gallons, that would be a lot more profit, and considering modern cars have fuel systems that will compensate to a degree to the kind of gas in tank, well, who would ever know.

Maybe someone didn't know the station tank hadn't been filled, or they were waiting for a delivery and went ahead and put water in. Maybe you just got there at the wrong time.

Don't want to fuel the conspiracy though.

So you put 200 gallons of water in to make an additional $2 and risk damaging your $10,000 equipment? Stations adding water to stretch fuel is an urban legend. Yes, a small station stands a larger risk of having water but that is a result of less product turn over and shoddy maintenance practices not some weird ass scam.

[Silver Cervy]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not trying to debate with you and of course I don't have all the info but if you filled up with a 1/4 tank and your fuel was 70% water then you either had a pile of water in the tank to start with or you filled up with 100% water. The math doesn't work and the car should not have run at all since the very act of pumping gas in would stir up any water. It wouldn't be settled out on the bottom of the tank until the car had sat still for an hour or so but you would still have had issues if in fact it was 70% water. Unless it was a long term thing the fuel pump would not have been damaged in any way by water passing through it so not sure why it had to be replaced. Disposal of 10 gallons of water contaminated fuel would cost about $50 - $100 max so that shouldn't be a huge expense.


The sample will be telling and the bill will show you bought gas there but good luck getting them to say that other people had issues! Let us know how you make out this is indeed an interesting one.

I'm sure you're right and that the technician exaggerated, but even if it was a high percentage of water it wouldn't have broken the car during that drive. The station is literally 3 miles from my house and I had around a quarter of a tank of good fuel still in there so that small bit was running my engine on the 5 minute drive home, then the water settled in overnight. As for the fuel pump, I'm guessing it got flooded from the multiple times I tried to start the car (since as I said in the first post, I believed that the battery was the problem at the time).

The dealership said that the new fuel pump won't arrive till Thursday so I won't see the records until then. In the meantime, I'm going to find out if there's anyone higher up I can talk to in the gas station, maybe find the supplier. Again, this is not a small station in a remote area. It gets a lot of activity during the day and I've been getting gas almost exclusively there for 3 years. I'm sure that other people got screwed that day like I did, I just have to get them to admit it.

[mazeroni]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

So you put 200 gallons of water in to make an additional $2 and risk damaging your $10,000 equipment? Stations adding water to stretch fuel is an urban legend. Yes, a small station stands a larger risk of having water but that is a result of less product turn over and shoddy maintenance practices not some weird ass scam.

Maybe my math is wrong, but wouldn't 200 gallons of water (gas prices at 2.50) = 500$? in more profit because the price of water is basically nill.

Which is why I think someone would do it.