Am I the only one who thinks a swapped 86 is no longer an 86?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

You trumped my argument.

Lets not get political here.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Just saying!

Hey, were you around when there was that asshole who ended every contrarian post he made with 'just sayin''?

I despise that phrase, don't diminish your own opinion. I've said it a few times, being self deprecating is a hard habit to break.

*insert canadian meme*

Edit: Also "ask me how I know"

No, fuck off you smug asshole.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Lets not get political here.



Hey, were you around when there was that asshole who ended every contrarian post he made with 'just sayin''?

I despise that phrase, don't diminish your own opinion. I've said it a few times, being self deprecating is a hard habit to break.

*insert canadian meme*

Edit: Also "ask me how I know"

No, fuck off you smug asshole.

I am also not a fan of "just saying" or "ask me how I know" although I do indeed use both once in a while in a satirical manner.
One of my favorites is any version of "but I can't say"
"I was told by a high ranking official that I can not name"
"I have a document here that says XXX but I can't share it"
"I saw the greatest thing but can not tell you where"
I fully understand that people have things that they can not share in public but more often than not these statements are presented as some form of concrete fact with zero supporting evidence. If people are privy to information they are not supposed to be sharing publicly then they should not be sharing publicly. If you can share it then back it up. Happens all the time at work and I just disregard anything that includes any version of "I can't say" offhand.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

What if that's all it takes? I didn't dig into classic cars too much but I did get the impression that a few of the top trim cars were literally just bolt-ons for the base model.

I mean, don't get me wrong, if there's some serious work going on under the skin like what a BMW M car used to be and what some modern Pony cars do, where the chassis are reworked, suspension parts no longer bolt on, etc. I can understand.

But if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, has the same bones as a duck, tastes like a duck, and does burnouts like a duck...

False advertising is despicable, and yes the real deal should be worth more than the copy, but I don't see why a perfect clone is a lesser car than the real deal if hypothetically the only thing that's different is the go-fast parts were bolted on in 2007 instead 1967. At least, it wouldn't diminish my enjoyment of the vehicle.

To me it depends on what the car is and what is done. For my Z, the differences I know are:
- Twin turbo engine with supporting intercoolers, etc. instead of NA
- Slightly different shaped bell housing. Tranny internals are identical so who cares.
- 3.69 rear end with 6 bolt axles vs 4.08 with 5 bolt. Both have been proven to hold 500 RWHP so who really cares. Its about preference between acceleration vs top end at that point.
- HICAS rear wheel steering vs nothing. HICAS is heavy, useless garbage and most TT owners delete it.
- Higher capacity fuel pump. Easy replacement
- Active suspension with touring/sport modes. Usually gets switched out for coilovers anyway.
- Rear spoiler and intercooler vents in the front bumper
- Wider rear wheels. Usually doesn’t matter because most run fancy aftermarket ones anyway.
In this case, if you’re running a twin turbo swapped Z with an upgraded fuel pump and a new front bumper, maybe a TT rear end and spoiler to taste (I hate spoilers personally and never want them unless I’m tracking the vehicle and it serves a purpose), and you have everything meaningful that was different between the turbo and non-turbo. The only real downside is no matching numbers and a decrease in value but otherwise, it looks, feels, and behaves the same as a tastefully modded real TT. For me to own and enjoy, I wouldn’t care.
This is the same reason I’d rather have a superformance or factory five cobra kit than the real thing, even if I could afford a real one. I don’t care that it isn’t worth as much. It is every bit as capable, more in fact, and I don’t have to baby it as some priceless treasure. However, I wouldn’t try to pass it off as the real thing like a jackass if I ever went to sell it.
Then there’s cars like the Integra Type R that are different right down to the more rigid pinch welds. You may not feel this missing in a clone but I see a missing part of the overall performance package, and I wouldn’t consider it the same thing minus matching numbers like I would a Z. However, I think most of the older cars Tcoat is talking about aren’t likely to have anything that is difficult/impossible to transfer over like that. I think you could get what is essentially the same assembly of metal/rubber/cloth/plastic that is identical to the real thing except for matching numbers, and that I would be okay with as long as it isn’t priced as the real thing.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There is no "right" or "wrong" here. There are no facts or data that can be applied. It is an opinion based subject and that is that. We were talking about the very specific topic of should it be named the same not is it more fun or better with the swap. If you wish to expand the scope of the conversation then that needs to be clear. Even then there could be no right or wrong answer since not everybody uses it the same way.

I will try one more time with a subject you may understand.

I run out and buy a $75 Squire guitar.
I then buy the best pickups for it and slap a Strat sticker on it.
Is it now a top level Strat guitar?

More about this above but I don’t think the strat comparison really applies. Most cars share a large number of parts throughout all of the models, especially after you’ve swapped in the faster model’s engine. I’ve got an American strat. You don’t get the same neck on a Squier, the pickups are different, you don’t get the ash body. No S-1 switch available and I don’t even know that the little shit like the knobs and tuning keys are the same. You literally have to change almost everything whereas with most cars and their performance counterparts, there are a large number of shared parts that literally come from the same bin. It is possible on many cars to go into enough detail transferring all of the parts that make the performance model different. You don’t have an official matching numbers model but in a lot of cases, you literally have the exact same parts put together in the exact same way as from the factory, and it works exactly the same. To do that on a Strat, you would literally have to replace the entire car, where with a car, you can keep many of the original parts.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

To me it depends on what the car is and what is done. For my Z, the differences I know are:
- Twin turbo engine with supporting intercoolers, etc. instead of NA
- Slightly different shaped bell housing. Tranny internals are identical so who cares.
- 3.69 rear end with 6 bolt axles vs 4.08 with 5 bolt. Both have been proven to hold 500 RWHP so who really cares. Its about preference between acceleration vs top end at that point.
- HICAS rear wheel steering vs nothing. HICAS is heavy, useless garbage and most TT owners delete it.
- Higher capacity fuel pump. Easy replacement
- Active suspension with touring/sport modes. Usually gets switched out for coilovers anyway.
- Rear spoiler and intercooler vents in the front bumper
- Wider rear wheels. Usually doesn’t matter because most run fancy aftermarket ones anyway.
In this case, if you’re running a twin turbo swapped Z with an upgraded fuel pump and a new front bumper, maybe a TT rear end and spoiler to taste (I hate spoilers personally and never want them unless I’m tracking the vehicle and it serves a purpose), and you have everything meaningful that was different between the turbo and non-turbo. The only real downside is no matching numbers and a decrease in value but otherwise, it looks, feels, and behaves the same as a tastefully modded real TT. For me to own and enjoy, I wouldn’t care.
This is the same reason I’d rather have a superformance or factory five cobra kit than the real thing, even if I could afford a real one. I don’t care that it isn’t worth as much. It is every bit as capable, more in fact, and I don’t have to baby it as some priceless treasure. However, I wouldn’t try to pass it off as the real thing like a jackass if I ever went to sell it.
Then there’s cars like the Integra Type R that are different right down to the more rigid pinch welds. You may not feel this missing in a clone but I see a missing part of the overall performance package, and I wouldn’t consider it the same thing minus matching numbers like I would a Z. However, I think most of the older cars Tcoat is talking about aren’t likely to have anything that is difficult/impossible to transfer over like that. I think you could get what is essentially the same assembly of metal/rubber/cloth/plastic that is identical to the real thing except for matching numbers, and that I would be okay with as long as it isn’t priced as the real thing.


More about this above but I don’t think the strat comparison really applies. Most cars share a large number of parts throughout all of the models, especially after you’ve swapped in the faster model’s engine. I’ve got an American strat. You don’t get the same neck on a Squier, the pickups are different, you don’t get the ash body. No S-1 switch available and I don’t even know that the little shit like the knobs and tuning keys are the same. You literally have to change almost everything whereas with most cars and their performance counterparts, there are a large number of shared parts that literally come from the same bin. It is possible on many cars to go into enough detail transferring all of the parts that make the performance model different. You don’t have an official matching numbers model but in a lot of cases, you literally have the exact same parts put together in the exact same way as from the factory, and it works exactly the same. To do that on a Strat, you would literally have to replace the entire car, where with a car, you can keep many of the original parts.

As others have missed I am not saying the vehicle would not be as good. I am saying that it still in NOT that vehicle as designated.


If somebody takes all repro parts and puts them on a car then sure it may look and act like the real thing but it still isn't.


If I took the basic body of a Strat and replaced all the functioning parts with offshore knockoffs would it be a Strat?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Pretty sure that everybody is reading my stuff here with much more intensity and seriousness than it was written.

Um...


no.

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

This may make @Ultramaroon do a spit take, but he should have swallowed.

I expect more from you.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Lets not get political here.

Nice.

Our cars.

Just saying.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

To me it depends on what the car is and what is done. For my Z, the differences I know are:

You get me.

[Xxyion]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not the same thing. Not like they take out your heart and throw in a Super Pumper 5000 that makes you far better than you were before and changes you from human to Superman.
You are talking more take out the old broken part and put a working one back in. That is repair not "upgrading".

LOL i'm sorry i HAVE to comment on this one. So minor backstory. I've gone through major heart surgery 3 times to replace three parts.

My original heart valve and aortic veins. If i was normal they would last me 80-100 years (lifespan)

My new heart valve and aortic veins. Heart valve could technically last 200 years and the aortic veins will NEVER wear out.

So...technically i got upgraded.

And before you say (well its not like you can go do more now)..

My new aortic veins allow me to push myself harder than before because they will never ever again aneurism.

*drops mic*


Disclaimer: I dont really care about the original argument but i had to comment on this post lol.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Xxyion

*drops mic*

Woah! *picks up mic - concerned hand on shoulder*

You ok?


Sincere congrats for a new lease on life.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Xxyion

LOL i'm sorry i HAVE to comment on this one. So minor backstory. I've gone through major heart surgery 3 times to replace three parts.

My original heart valve and aortic veins. If i was normal they would last me 80-100 years (lifespan)

My new heart valve and aortic veins. Heart valve could technically last 200 years and the aortic veins will NEVER wear out.

So...technically i got upgraded.

And before you say (well its not like you can go do more now)..

My new aortic veins allow me to push myself harder than before because they will never ever again aneurism.

*drops mic*


Disclaimer: I dont really care about the original argument but i had to comment on this post lol.

Ahhh but would they allow you to push harder than healthy original ones? Are you now able to leap tall buildings and be faster than a speeding built? Nope you can now just do what a person with healthy veins could do.

[Overdrive]

We don't necessarily know that. If they're more efficient than normal, healthy ones, they very well could allow you to do things beyond normal healthy person capabilities. This is why blood doping in competitive sports is frowned upon.

[ShadowReaper]

Great discussion. I do agree that swapping out the fa20, and throwing in a v6 or v8 or whatever will change the car drastically but it doesnt just lose the right to be called an 86. It's still the same chassis. Regardless if I throw in a v8 and Im cruising down the street, people will refer to it as an FRS/BRZ/GT86.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

We don't necessarily know that. If they're more efficient than normal, healthy ones, they very well could allow you to do things beyond normal healthy person capabilities. This is why blood doping in competitive sports is frowned upon.

Nope. Doping is a different completely different matter. It would have the same effect regardless if in the original or repaired state.
If my sink drain pipes are plugged and I take them out and changed them for new ones I have not altered their function just returned them to a properly working manner.
If I poured drain cleaner down either an old or new system it would improve the flow of each. The flow on the new may be slightly impacted and the flow on the old greatly impacted but the overall effect is still an improvement.
Now, if I add a garbage disposal unit to the system then I have greatly changed the function and effectiveness of my system.

[Overdrive]

I get you, but he's pretty much saying his new parts could outlive him, so they could be more efficient than what we consider normal and healthy. If they are, there is at least the potential (needing to be scientifically proven) that he's capable of more than a pound-for-pound person born with healthy parts.

Kind of like someone taking OEM parts and engineering them to be a bit better. Doesn't change fit or form, but does change (improve) function.

To bring that back to the heart of the thread (no pun intended, promise) that'd be a way to improve the car without making it no longer what it was.

[Dadhawk]

Sorry my Philosophy degree is going to show....

Basically what we are arguing here is the Paradox of Theseus's Ship.

If you have a wooden ship and replace one part at a time, at what point is it no longer the same ship? Or, alternatively, if you take the ship apart and reassemble it, it would be the same ship, but what if you take it apart and build two new ships, is one of them still the original ship?

90 second Video Explanation:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVAHXiKjgRo"]The Paradox of Theseus's Ship (90 Second Philosophy) - YouTube[/ame]

This same argument happens with car, warbird and other restorations. At what point is it really the same machine?

I've seen warbirds that have been "rebuilt" from crushed heaps of parts found at the bottom of the ocean or in a glacier, but because it has the original data plate and a few "original" parts it is considered a restored aircraft when in reality its a new plane that used a few old parts and a lot on new ones.

Not sure there really is a true single answer to this.