Suspension newbie.

[phongtphan21]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

I'll give more generalised advice than what you are seeing here and generally things that you want to look for.

A lot of people get hung up on spring rates and adjustability but they are generally inconsequential compared to the other more important aspects of the suspension. First, look for a suspension design with inverted front struts. This design puts the heaviest part of the strut at the top, connected to the body of the car where it is sprung weight. This lowers the unsprung weight on the suspension. The OEM design uses inverted fronts and so should any quality aftermarket suspension for our cars.

Next, there are 3 types of struts. Twin tube, mono tube and external reservoir. It is important to know the differences of each type.

Twintube - Usually cheap, comfort level ranges from very comfortable to very harsh, depending on strut design. Doesn't hold up to track use.
Monotube - Usually more expensive. Street comfort levels vary from acceptable to terrible. Will hold up to track use. OEM is a Monotube design.
External reservoir - Very expensive, reserved for high end. Comfort level depends on how it's set but can be configured to be very comfortable on the street and great on track.

If you are going to track your car, avoid twin-tube suspension designs because they generally don't hold up to the abuse. I'm sure there are exceptions but I'd stick to the rule. If the car won't ever see a track, then a twin-tube design will be great. As mentioned, external resevoir types are generally reserved for high end suspension due to cost.

Next you can think about adjustability. If you are new and not very good with suspension, you might want to stick to single adjustable to start with and maybe later upgrade to double adjustables as you outgrow your single adjustables. The fact is, you will probably already know if you need double adjustable suspension when you actually could benefit from it.

Finally, spring rates. It's important to choose spring rates that will work with the tires that you are running. The OEM suspension setup is designed to be used with UHP summer tires. 4k-6k spring rates are generally good for extreme performance summer tire category and 7k and up for R-Comps and slicks. For example, I can feel that my 6k/4k spring rates overwhelm my street tires (Continental DWS) on track but they seem well suited to my BFG Rivals.

I'm sure more experienced people can elaborate/correct these points but these are just the general guide-lines to look for when purchasing suspension.

Thanks lynxis. I really appreciate the feedback on it. I was thinking of going towards mono tube since later in future I would probably end up tracking the car and buy another car once I become a boss at my job.

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[Shark_Bait88]

Since you aren't really sure what you want to do yet, just keep the suspension you have.

For the most part it sounds like you're wanting to upgrade just to upgrade, under the assumption that you need coilovers to go to the track (this is a very common misconception). The stock suspension on these cars is perfectly capable of handling a track day, especially for someone who has never done one before. You don't need tons of adjustability to make these cars fun. They handle great right from the factory!

It sounds like comfort might also play a factor. If you'd like increased comfort a set of Bilstein B6 or B8 dampers with OTS, or custom valving to match the TRD spring rates, could help with comfort. If you wanna learn to play with adjusting damper settings, doesn't sound like you're quite at that level of understanding yet (many people who get coilovers aren't), then Koni Yellows would be another option.

My suggestion is keep what you have. Spend the money you'd spend on coilovers on some seat time. The $1,200-2,000+ you'd spend on the range of coilovers you've listed would easily cover a set of pads for the track, better brake fluid, entry fee, and even a helmet and track day insurance if you wanted.

Drive the car in more settings/ways, like track days and/or autox, to figure out what you really want to do and how you want the suspension to perform, then upgrade accordingly.

[strat61caster]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10643

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67345

I agree with Shark, you'll get the best results by working with the suspension you have, it is already very good. If you're not ready for track try some autox, whether you're in NorCal or SoCal there are many many options and the minimum this car 'needs' for track duty is brake fluid and maybe brake pads, and that's IF you can drive hard enough to actually exceed the OE equipment, most newbies can't on their first day or even after a few days of trying (unless you have good instruction).

There are more ways to set this car up wrong then there are right ways.

[MeisterR]

Originally Posted by phongtphan21

At the moment I'll probably will lower my car 2 inchs, get some 18s gram lights wheels, LCA and Camber and make it look like a show car until I learn more about tracking and such to get into that.

Base on what you want, I would say the MeisterR ZetaCRD+ coilovers would be another option to put on the list.

*Dual perch design will allow you to lower the 2" ride height without compromising the damper stroke travel.
*Sensible springs rate (F: 5kg/mm, R: 4kg/mm) will allow good daily ride comfort.
*One-way adjustable mono-tube damper will allow adjustment between ride compliancy for daily use and steering response for track use in the future.

The coilovers kit comes complete, including front camber adjustable top mount and adjustable front drop links.





Will also fall within budget of other coilovers you are looking at.
There are reviews to read and I am sure more questions to ask.

You can see some reviews here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104952

So any questions just let me know.

Jerrick

[phongtphan21]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Since you aren't really sure what you want to do yet, just keep the suspension you have.

For the most part it sounds like you're wanting to upgrade just to upgrade, under the assumption that you need coilovers to go to the track (this is a very common misconception). The stock suspension on these cars is perfectly capable of handling a track day, especially for someone who has never done one before. You don't need tons of adjustability to make these cars fun. They handle great right from the factory!

It sounds like comfort might also play a factor. If you'd like increased comfort a set of Bilstein B6 or B8 dampers with OTS, or custom valving to match the TRD spring rates, could help with comfort. If you wanna learn to play with adjusting damper settings, doesn't sound like you're quite at that level of understanding yet (many people who get coilovers aren't), then Koni Yellows would be another option.

My suggestion is keep what you have. Spend the money you'd spend on coilovers on some seat time. The $1,200-2,000+ you'd spend on the range of coilovers you've listed would easily cover a set of pads for the track, better brake fluid, entry fee, and even a helmet and track day insurance if you wanted.

Drive the car in more settings/ways, like track days and/or autox, to figure out what you really want to do and how you want the suspension to perform, then upgrade accordingly.

I'll take in consideration what you said shark, the only reason why I wasn't gonna track it now was because I'm kinda learning from some uncle that does track on their car and they feel that I should learn on a track car that's already build to track then a new car that I don't wanna ruin to much yet. I've had coilovers on like my old cars, miatas. Civic. But I just dropped it and had some friends help me set everything in , but I figure it's time for me to start learning more about dampening and such and I'm more of a hands on so I figure I'll buy the coilovers I've continue to research and learn more of damlerong by googling and YouTube before I jump the gun. Lol

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[turtlefeeder]

Originally Posted by MeisterR

Base on what you want, I would say the MeisterR ZetaCRD+ coilovers would be another option to put on the list.



*Dual perch design will allow you to lower the 2" ride height without compromising the damper stroke travel.

*Sensible springs rate (F: 5kg/mm, R: 4kg/mm) will allow good daily ride comfort.

*One-way adjustable mono-tube damper will allow adjustment between ride compliancy for daily use and steering response for track use in the future.



The coilovers kit comes complete, including front camber adjustable top mount and adjustable front drop links.











Will also fall within budget of other coilovers you are looking at.

There are reviews to read and I am sure more questions to ask.



You can see some reviews here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104952



So any questions just let me know.



Jerrick

I'll vouch for this one 👍 got it last week and it's fantastic. That reminds me I should write up a quick review and snap a couple of pictures

[Icecreamtruk]

These coilovers (MeisterR ZetaCRD+) have me on a weird position. On one hand, they look really good for what they cost, almost too good actually. On the other hand, the spring rate is a killer deal for me, I need stiffer springs (r-compound tires) and I dont want a stiffer front than rear (killing the rotation of the car). Specially when you consider the wheel rate is close to 1 in the front but around 0.75 on the rear (which nets almost double spring for the front than the rear).

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by phongtphan21

I'll take in consideration what you said shark, the only reason why I wasn't gonna track it now was because I'm kinda learning from some uncle that does track on their car and they feel that I should learn on a track car that's already build to track then a new car that I don't wanna ruin to much yet. I've had coilovers on like my old cars, miatas. Civic. But I just dropped it and had some friends help me set everything in , but I figure it's time for me to start learning more about dampening and such and I'm more of a hands on so I figure I'll buy the coilovers I've continue to research and learn more of damlerong by googling and YouTube before I jump the gun. Lol

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These cars are already "built to track," at least for a beginner. I'd have no qualms about going out there in a completely stock car with nothing more than a brake fluid change before hand. In fact, I did just that (although I had new pads too) at Road America for my first HPDE.

I can understand not wanting to risk your DD/a new-ish car at a track day. But if it's something you're genuinely interested in doing, you'll either have to do it in this car or you'll need to get a track day car. Unless you can get your uncle to let you use his track car to try it out. haha If you're worried about stuffing the car into a wall, there are track day insurance options like Lockton. If you total your car you'll still end up paying a decent amount (10-15% depending on which policy you choose), but it's a lot better than being out whatever amount you owe on the car (assuming it's still being paid off).

I guess all I'm really trying to say is that if you really do want to try tracking the car, you'll be better served by doing it before getting coilovers first. It'll help you learn more about how the car handles and how you want to improve it through upgrades. You'll be able to track just fine going out with it on coilovers the first time, but I think many people would agree that doing it on stock suspension first would lead to more ideal development of the car.

If you're waiting to track for the concerns of doing so in a new car, go give autocross a try for awhile. It'll also let you experience the car driving more at its limits and give you a better understanding of what you want to do as well.

[SpeedStarOne]

I wasn't a big fan of my ST coilovers when I had them on my VW GLI. My main reason being, they're only 1 way height adjustable. This means, in order to raise/lower the car you must change the preload on the spring. I prefer coilovers that have the adjustable lower bracket so you can raise/lower the car without having to touch the preload.

[turtlefeeder]

Originally Posted by SpeedStarOne

I wasn't a big fan of my ST coilovers when I had them on my VW GLI. My main reason being, they're only 1 way height adjustable. This means, in order to raise/lower the car you must change the preload on the spring. I prefer coilovers that have the adjustable lower bracket so you can raise/lower the car without having to touch the preload.

Base st right? For the 86 you'll probably want st xta since they're more than one way but.. that's 1440 dollars vs the excellent MeisterR right now for only 995 huge difference in price and the performance of MeisterR is incredible with 32 way damp/rebound adjustment 😵

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by phongtphan21

Thanks lynxis. I really appreciate the feedback on it. I was thinking of going towards mono tube since later in future I would probably end up tracking the car and buy another car once I become a boss at my job.

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Read the post by RCE, mono tube isn't as critical as you might think. A good twin tube is WAY better than a poor mono tube.

Also keep in mind that dampers have a relatively short lifespan before needing to be rebuilt or replaced (50-70k miles if you believe most shock manufacturers). If you are going to keep the car this way for 3-4 years, you'll likely be wanting new shocks or a rebuild anyway.

[SpeedStarOne]

Originally Posted by turtlefeeder

Base st right? For the 86 you'll probably want st xta since they're more than one way but.. that's 1440 dollars vs the excellent MeisterR right now for only 995 huge difference in price and the performance of MeisterR is incredible with 32 way damp/rebound adjustment 😵

The base ST and the XTA are the same in regards to height adjustment. You only get dampening adjustment in the XTA, which isn't the issue I was referring to.

[MeisterR]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

These coilovers (MeisterR ZetaCRD+) have me on a weird position. On one hand, they look really good for what they cost, almost too good actually. On the other hand, the spring rate is a killer deal for me, I need stiffer springs (r-compound tires) and I dont want a stiffer front than rear (killing the rotation of the car). Specially when you consider the wheel rate is close to 1 in the front but around 0.75 on the rear (which nets almost double spring for the front than the rear).

I have heard that from some of our customers already, and it is something we are looking into.

The ZetaCRD+ for the 86 are design as a fast road / track day suspensions.
That mean we want to keep springs rate sensible and keep those wheel frequency under the 2.0Hz area.
We want the rear to be softer so it is more predictable when you lay the power down.
We also want the front and rear to have a big enough wheel cycle difference so the suspension do not hit a suspension harmonics (something that feels pretty horrible).

The entire specification design on the MeisterR ZetaCRD+ are based around road compound tyres and fast road compliancy.
That also mean we try to have as much damper stroke travel as we can, because that also lead to better compliancy, traction, and performance.

For a track car, and a few customers have ask us regarding this.
To make the most out of R-compounds tires, you will want to bring the wheel frequency higher.
That and damper valving need to be adjusted to take advantage of the higher springs rate.

That is something we are looking into and actually already work out all the springs rate and damper valving rate.
It was something I am going to post up to see if there are any specific interests in a "track focused" setup.

We don't just put a stiffer springs and call it done.
The entire kit will be different, with different springs, damper valving, differ damper stroke travel, etc.
The only thing it will share with our road setup would probably be the top mount and the mounting brackets.

Jerrick

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by SpeedStarOne

I wasn't a big fan of my ST coilovers when I had them on my VW GLI. My main reason being, they're only 1 way height adjustable. This means, in order to raise/lower the car you must change the preload on the spring. I prefer coilovers that have the adjustable lower bracket so you can raise/lower the car without having to touch the preload.

Unless you're raising the car very high or running progressive springs, you're only changing preload on a helper spring (which has a negligible rate).

I generally prefer coilovers that are 1 way height adjustable, but that has more to do with what's available than the "feature" itself. Separate preload and ride height adjustability is very far down on my list of what I want on a coilover and when you look at almost all of the really good coilovers, they don't have this feature. They're just correctly sized coilovers with good bump AND droop travel with helper springs.

- Andrew