Front camber? Noob

[Norinradd]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

The struggle is real. :/

15 people telling me different shit is the real struggle

Straight answers would be nice. Not all these fucking riddles


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[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Norinradd

15 people telling me different shit is the real struggle

Straight answers would be nice. Not all these fucking riddles

Here's another riddle. How do you know the change in ride height caused the variance if you didn't measure the camber before you lowered it?

[bfrank1972]

lol. straightforward question and answer, here we go:

Q: Why is my camber out of wack on the rear of my car?
A: No one knows, and you've done little to help us help you

Q: What do I do to fix it?
A: Could be anything, maybe your subframe is skewed, possible impact? You can spend $200 on SPC LCA's and install them yourself.

Q: That's not good enough of an answer, I want to know why some people told me that I would not have to have camber adjustment with TRD springs?
A: Because something is off with your car. Or your installation perhaps (can't imagine what). We are not mind readers so we do the best we can.

Q: What do I do if I don't want to spend $200 but I want my car fixed?
A: Return your car to stock, and be fine with it. If you want to mod your car, be prepared to have patience and money to throw at it. Don't get pissed at us if you have no idea what you're doing.

Thanks for playing

[Norinradd]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Here's another riddle. How do you know the change in ride height caused the variance if you didn't measure the camber before you lowered it?

That is something ive been wondering myself. There is a decent baseball sized ding in the middle of what i would call my running board. About 3ft from center of rear tire. Could have shifted the subframe. I dont know how previous owner got that.

Although i feel like it would have still been noticeable with stock height and stock tires. 1.5 degrees is quite noticeable dont you think?

I noticed as soon as i did the springs. I re did the rears today. Making sure everything was perfect. Torqued every damn bolt to spec. Everything looks symetrical and good down there.

Another member didnsay after trd springs his car had a degree of variance in the rear. Maybe my shits just extreme? Lol


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[Norinradd]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

lol. straightforward question and answer, here we go:

Q: Why is my camber out of wack on the rear of my car?
A: No one knows, and you've done little to help us help you

Q: What do I do to fix it?
A: Could be anything, maybe your subframe is skewed, possible impact? You can spend $200 on SPC LCA's and install them yourself.

Q: That's not good enough of an answer, I want to know why some people told me that I would not have to have camber adjustment with TRD springs?
A: Because something is off with your car. Or your installation perhaps (can't imagine what). We are not mind readers so we do the best we can.

Q: What do I do if I don't want to spend $200 but I want my car fixed?
A: Return your car to stock, and be fine with it. If you want to mod your car, be prepared to have patience and money to throw at it. Don't get pissed at us if you have no idea what you're doing.

Thanks for playing

.75 inches on a lowering spring, to call that a chassis/suspension modification where you would expect to throw money at it after the fact, comon man. Really? Its modding in the slightest sense.

That being said im fine with spending 200$. But in canada 240$ is over 300.shipping taxes and duties. And then another alignment. Im close to 500$

How can i help? The only thing that has been asked of me is to post a photo of a double wishbone setup.

I could have taken photos of MY own cars rear end. For you guys to look at. That would have been helpful. As you know what youre looking at. Youd spot a bend quickly. As i would in the suspensions im used to looking at. Id know wich bends are supposed to be there and wich arent.


I will buy the spcs for the rear i guess. Is there a candian vendor!? For speed factory.

Also for the front. Ive been told i need whitelines for bottom bolt and re use bottom bolt up top. I have about 3/4" of space between spring and tire. 245/40 on a 17x8.25 with +35. Ive been told i need something? As ill hit suspension. Camber plates i believe? The guy also had +45 offset. My tire only is inward 3mm from stock but out something like 28mm

I guess im hoping for -2.5 infront and -2.0 in rear.

Really i need a degree of variance +\- in the rear and 1.5 in the front!! To be simple.

Thank you for your straightness. Haha




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[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Norinradd

That is something ive been wondering myself. There is a decent baseball sized ding in the middle of what i would call my running board. About 3ft from center of rear tire. Could have shifted the subframe. I dont know how previous owner got that.

Although i feel like it would have still been noticeable with stock height and stock tires. 1.5 degrees is quite noticeable dont you think?

I noticed as soon as i did the springs. I re did the rears today. Making sure everything was perfect. Torqued every damn bolt to spec. Everything looks symetrical and good down there.

Another member didnsay after trd springs his car had a degree of variance in the rear. Maybe my shits just extreme? Lol

Did you spend any time studying the image of the model wparsons gave you? If not, go back, study it until you can clearly explain to me why a shift in the subframe would have no effect.

If you cannot make enough sense of the image to do that, then once again... (how many times have I asked for this?)

google double wishbone suspensions.

find a couple simple diagrams to share here so we can discuss them.

I recognized immediately that you lack a basic understanding. That is why I started with this approach. Period.

[Norinradd]

I never said a shift in the subframe would have no effect. I said it Would!! And i wad just under my car for fucking hours man. I dont need to look at a diagram. Nor do i neeed to look at a diagram to understand the physics of an impact. ALLL suspension systems would be out of skew from a sub/frame impact. Not just double wishbone. Christ


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[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Norinradd

I never said a shift in the subframe would have no effect. I said it Would!! And i wad just under my car for fucking hours man. I dont need to look at a diagram. Nor do i neeed to look at a diagram to understand the physics of an impact. ALLL suspension systems would be out of skew from a sub/frame impact. Not just double wishbone. Christ


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I know what you said I'm trying to help you understand how you're wrong. A simple shift in the subframe has no effect. Dude, I'm finished here. Good luck with it.

[wparsons]

Once again, ALL the answers you're after have been covered if you just bothered to search. Don't get pissed off at people that are trying to help just because you don't like their answers or don't understand them.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

I understand the differences between the fromt and rear struts. I was holding them in my hand yesterday. I could see how a bent fromt strut would comprismise more than just camber up front.

What else would it compromise? My WHOLE point about the front was that a bent strut would directly change camber even without a difference in ride height.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

But lowering my car excentuated the camber variance in my back end? This is what i first said when i first mentioned it. I understand that.

Unless one side is significantly lower than the other, lowering it didn't accentuate the difference left to right (also known as cross camber). Stop blaming the springs for this unless there really is a big difference in ride height. Your car was probably out by this much before, but since you didn't have it aligned you never noticed.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

Also how am i to measure ride height when one tire is angled way in and the other is almost flat. Its decieving..? Kinda hard to measure ride height unless both tires are square.

By measuring between two points that don't rely on the tire... like fender to center of hub or fender to ground. Again, search before asking for people to spoon feed you every.single.answer!

Originally Posted by Norinradd

And you dont need to uhg no me. Im repeating whay you are saying. That strut and spring have "nothing to do with camber" but putting a smaller spring in effects camber? So youre telling me two things man. Dont get mad at me

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The ugh was definitely required because you're not actually reading what people are telling you. You asked why the camber is different left to right, and mentioned someone told you a bent strut would do it. First, it's not a strut in the rear. Second, if you actually read what people (myself included) have told you, you'd understand better.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

That is something ive been wondering myself. There is a decent baseball sized ding in the middle of what i would call my running board. About 3ft from center of rear tire. Could have shifted the subframe. I dont know how previous owner got that.

Is that on the side with more camber, or the other side?

Originally Posted by Norinradd

Although i feel like it would have still been noticeable with stock height and stock tires. 1.5 degrees is quite noticeable dont you think?

Not at all unless you're taking measurements. Did you notice before it went on the alignment rack after installing the springs?

Originally Posted by Norinradd

I noticed as soon as i did the springs. I re did the rears today. Making sure everything was perfect. Torqued every damn bolt to spec. Everything looks symetrical and good down there.

"Looks good and symmetrical" without accurate measurements means nothing with an alignment. A difference of 1.5* would be about 1/4" difference at the top of the wheel, there's simply no way you can eyeball that while looking at the suspension arms. The difference in length between the arms/mounting points would be like 1/16".

You did all that, but still haven't measured ride height? Start looking at basic things first instead of just repeating what you've already done.

Did you take the other advice that someone suggested and have a friend push or pull to try to add or remove camber while torquing all the bolts down?

On the side with too much camber, have the friend pull out on the top of the wheel as hard as they can while every bolt on the UCA and LCA is torqued down (from loose, not from hand tight). On the other side have them push in on the top of the wheel as hard as they can. There's a bit of wiggle room in every connection before the bolts are torqued and you just might be able to even out the camber a bit. There's not guarantees, but if you're already taking stuff apart multiple times you might as well try this.

That said, you won't be able to see the difference so you'll have to spend money on another alignment to check it. By the time you try a bunch of options and have it aligned again, you would've been better off to just buy the LCA set and do it right.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

Another member didnsay after trd springs his car had a degree of variance in the rear. Maybe my shits just extreme? Lol

Put 10 stock cars on an alignment rack and I bet 7 or 8 will be off by at least 0.5*, with at least a couple being out by more than 1*.


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Originally Posted by Norinradd

15 people telling me different shit is the real struggle

Straight answers would be nice. Not all these fucking riddles


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There are no riddles, you're just not taking the time to read and comprehend properly.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

.75 inches on a lowering spring, to call that a chassis/suspension modification where you would expect to throw money at it after the fact, comon man. Really? Its modding in the slightest sense.

That being said im fine with spending 200$. But in canada 240$ is over 300.shipping taxes and duties. And then another alignment. Im close to 500$

If you're not prepared to keep spending, stop modifying anything or deal with it being "good enough". Put the stock springs back in and get it aligned and see how much it's still out.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

How can i help? The only thing that has been asked of me is to post a photo of a double wishbone setup.

Start with ride height measurements at all four corners while the car is resting on a really flat surface.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

I could have taken photos of MY own cars rear end. For you guys to look at. That would have been helpful. As you know what youre looking at. Youd spot a bend quickly. As i would in the suspensions im used to looking at. Id know wich bends are supposed to be there and wich arent.

It would only take a very minimal bend to be out by 1.5* side to side, no one is going to see that in pictures.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

I will buy the spcs for the rear i guess. Is there a candian vendor!? For speed factory.

I'm not going to answer this one beyond SEARCH. There is a canadian distributor, but you're going to have to do some leg work for once.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

Also for the front. Ive been told i need whitelines for bottom bolt and re use bottom bolt up top. I have about 3/4" of space between spring and tire. 245/40 on a 17x8.25 with +35. Ive been told i need something? As ill hit suspension. Camber plates i believe? The guy also had +45 offset. My tire only is inward 3mm from stock but out something like 28mm

Again with not fully reading what you're told. It was me that told you that you MIGHT be limited to how much front camber you can get without camber plates by your wheel/tire specs. I have -2.3* up front with really tight clearance. Got there with Whiteline bolts in the top hole of the knuckle and some slight slotting of the hole.

You have +35 which gets you 10mm more clearance, but you're also running a 245 which in theory is 20mm wider than my 225's, BUT depending on what tire you have it could be more or less of a difference. Cutting that 20mm in half (since it'll bulge equally in and out) wipes out the 10mm extra you have from your offset. If your 245's aren't a full 20mm wider, you'll have more clearance, but if they're more than 20mm wider you'll have less.

You could add 10mm spacers, but then you need longer studs.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

I guess im hoping for -2.5 infront and -2.0 in rear.

Really i need a degree of variance +\- in the rear and 1.5 in the front!! To be simple.

Again, after reading more of your posts... don't get camber plates. They all make some noise due to the lack of any bushings, and you'll just be on here complaining about the noise and how to fix it.

Get as much camber as you can up front without rubbing the tire on the spring perch, how much that is will depend very much on your specific car and no one online can tell you that answer, then go with 0.5* less in the rear. If you're maxed out at -2* up front, then -1.5* in the rear. If you can get to -2.2* up front, then go with -1.7* in the rear, etc.

Originally Posted by Norinradd

I never said a shift in the subframe would have no effect. I said it Would!! And i wad just under my car for fucking hours man. I dont need to look at a diagram. Nor do i neeed to look at a diagram to understand the physics of an impact. ALLL suspension systems would be out of skew from a sub/frame impact. Not just double wishbone. Christ


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Again, you're not reading what people are telling you.

If you had looked at the diagram, you'd notice that the upper control arm AND lower control arm AND trailing arm AND toe arm are all both bolted to the subframe. You could set the entire rear alignment with the subframe out of the car.

What does that mean? It means that if the sub frame is slightly shifted left or right (or front or back) on the chassis it won't cause the camber variance you have.

If the subframe itself is bent, the mount point for the UCA or LCA could be moved and THAT could cause a difference in camber. Or if either LCA or UCA is bent, it could be causing it.

Now up front a shifted subframe can change camber because the upper mounting point for the struts is the body. That means shifting the sub frame changes the relative position between the upper and lower mounting points. You can't do the front alignment with the sub frame out of the car.

[Norinradd]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Did you spend any time studying the image of the model wparsons gave you? If not, go back, study it until you can clearly explain to me why a shift in the subframe would have no effect.

If you cannot make enough sense of the image to do that, then once again... (how many times have I asked for this?)

google double wishbone suspensions.

find a couple simple diagrams to share here so we can discuss them.

I recognized immediately that you lack a basic understanding. That is why I started with this approach. Period.

Man i said i had a dent in running board on side with more camber and you acted like i was an idiot for not assuming that impact could have changed camber.

Then i agree with you and you act like im an idiot for agreeing with you.

What
The
Fuck. I swear ur juat trolling and enjoy getting ppl fired up like tcoat


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[Norinradd]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Once again, ALL the answers you're after have been covered if you just bothered to search. Don't get pissed off at people that are trying to help just because you don't like their answers or don't understand them.



What else would it compromise? My WHOLE point about the front was that a bent strut would directly change camber even without a difference in ride height.



Unless one side is significantly lower than the other, lowering it didn't accentuate the difference left to right (also known as cross camber). Stop blaming the springs for this unless there really is a big difference in ride height. Your car was probably out by this much before, but since you didn't have it aligned you never noticed.



By measuring between two points that don't rely on the tire... like fender to center of hub or fender to ground. Again, search before asking for people to spoon feed you every.single.answer!




The ugh was definitely required because you're not actually reading what people are telling you. You asked why the camber is different left to right, and mentioned someone told you a bent strut would do it. First, it's not a strut in the rear. Second, if you actually read what people (myself included) have told you, you'd understand better.



Is that on the side with more camber, or the other side?



Not at all unless you're taking measurements. Did you notice before it went on the alignment rack after installing the springs?



"Looks good and symmetrical" without accurate measurements means nothing with an alignment. A difference of 1.5* would be about 1/4" difference at the top of the wheel, there's simply no way you can eyeball that while looking at the suspension arms. The difference in length between the arms/mounting points would be like 1/16".

You did all that, but still haven't measured ride height? Start looking at basic things first instead of just repeating what you've already done.

Did you take the other advice that someone suggested and have a friend push or pull to try to add or remove camber while torquing all the bolts down?

On the side with too much camber, have the friend pull out on the top of the wheel as hard as they can while every bolt on the UCA and LCA is torqued down (from loose, not from hand tight). On the other side have them push in on the top of the wheel as hard as they can. There's a bit of wiggle room in every connection before the bolts are torqued and you just might be able to even out the camber a bit. There's not guarantees, but if you're already taking stuff apart multiple times you might as well try this.

That said, you won't be able to see the difference so you'll have to spend money on another alignment to check it. By the time you try a bunch of options and have it aligned again, you would've been better off to just buy the LCA set and do it right.



Put 10 stock cars on an alignment rack and I bet 7 or 8 will be off by at least 0.5*, with at least a couple being out by more than 1*.


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There are no riddles, you're just not taking the time to read and comprehend properly.



If you're not prepared to keep spending, stop modifying anything or deal with it being "good enough". Put the stock springs back in and get it aligned and see how much it's still out.



Start with ride height measurements at all four corners while the car is resting on a really flat surface.



It would only take a very minimal bend to be out by 1.5* side to side, no one is going to see that in pictures.




I'm not going to answer this one beyond SEARCH. There is a canadian distributor, but you're going to have to do some leg work for once.



Again with not fully reading what you're told. It was me that told you that you MIGHT be limited to how much front camber you can get without camber plates by your wheel/tire specs. I have -2.3* up front with really tight clearance. Got there with Whiteline bolts in the top hole of the knuckle and some slight slotting of the hole.

You have +35 which gets you 10mm more clearance, but you're also running a 245 which in theory is 20mm wider than my 225's, BUT depending on what tire you have it could be more or less of a difference. Cutting that 20mm in half (since it'll bulge equally in and out) wipes out the 10mm extra you have from your offset. If your 245's aren't a full 20mm wider, you'll have more clearance, but if they're more than 20mm wider you'll have less.

You could add 10mm spacers, but then you need longer studs.



Again, after reading more of your posts... don't get camber plates. They all make some noise due to the lack of any bushings, and you'll just be on here complaining about the noise and how to fix it.

Get as much camber as you can up front without rubbing the tire on the spring perch, how much that is will depend very much on your specific car and no one online can tell you that answer, then go with 0.5* less in the rear. If you're maxed out at -2* up front, then -1.5* in the rear. If you can get to -2.2* up front, then go with -1.7* in the rear, etc.




Again, you're not reading what people are telling you.

If you had looked at the diagram, you'd notice that the upper control arm AND lower control arm AND trailing arm AND toe arm are all both bolted to the subframe. You could set the entire rear alignment with the subframe out of the car.

What does that mean? It means that if the sub frame is slightly shifted left or right (or front or back) on the chassis it won't cause the camber variance you have.

If the subframe itself is bent, the mount point for the UCA or LCA could be moved and THAT could cause a difference in camber. Or if either LCA or UCA is bent, it could be causing it.

Now up front a shifted subframe can change camber because the upper mounting point for the struts is the body. That means shifting the sub frame changes the relative position between the upper and lower mounting points. You can't do the front alignment with the sub frame out of the car.[/QUOTE]


First off. I dont get why were talking about the front struts. And youre not reading what i said!!! I said i CAN (not cant) see how bend in front strut would directly effect camber?!


Im not saying the springs CAUSED it. Immsaying they EXCENTUATED it. As in with the car having LESS wheel gap. Its EASIER. To see camber variance.

Ding is on side with more negative camber.

I noticed before alignment

Yes i tried the push and pull texhnique when i re did the rears yesterday seems maybe a bit better. Hard to say

I am ordering spc lcas and will be installin before i get another alignment. Also some whiteline bolts.

I searced on google for ft86 speed factory vendor as the search function in this forum is terrible.

I found ft86motorsports? Thats the candian vendor? 286$ shipped for lcas is really good!

Ill measure ride height after work










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[wbradley]

The rear suspension isn't a Mcpherson strut, it's Subaru's pseudo double-wishbone. The suspension itself is the load bearing structure, not the shock. If the shock was bent from a hit then there would likely be a lot more bent. Your vehicle could have taken an impact underneath that bent a control arm or the rear subframe. The running board is a different point of impact, obviously.

The car should be inspected underneath and the visual measurement you are doing for camber can actually be be done more accurately with a leveler app on an smart phone. The phone needs to be held along the rim or place a uniform flat object against the wheel, then the phone. Use level ground.

A 1" lowering doesn't "scream" for rear LCA's but the negative camber will increase as you go lower. The OEM settings do have some negative camber in rear so it will be accentuated as you drop. I am on a 20 mm drop (.78") with coilovers with front camber plates. The plates increase noise/harshness as they have a pillow ball bearing.

Pretty sure you should be OK stock with TRD 1" lowering springs/Eibach Sportlines. If in 50,000 km you see notable shoulder wear on the rear tires then invest in adjustable rear LCA's going forward. I think Tcoat has TRD springs since new on stock suspension/tires without issue. The current wisdom seems to be for street use or occasoinal track, max drop 1" no absolute need for camber correction. Camber bolts in the front are cheap so maybe worth adding a bit since the rear was increased.

YMMV

[Norinradd]

Originally Posted by wbradley

The rear suspension isn't a Mcpherson strut, it's Subaru's pseudo double-wishbone. The suspension itself is the load bearing structure, not the shock. If the shock was bent from a hit then there would likely be a lot more bent. Your vehicle could have taken an impact underneath that bent a control arm or the rear subframe. The running board is a different point of impact, obviously.

The car should be inspected underneath and the visual measurement you are doing for camber can actually be be done a lot ore accurately with a leveler app on an smart phone. The phone needs to be held along the rim or place a uniform flat object against the wheel, then the phone. Use level ground.

Crazy! Thanks. Ill do it after work!!


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[Norinradd]

Originally Posted by wbradley

The rear suspension isn't a Mcpherson strut, it's Subaru's pseudo double-wishbone. The suspension itself is the load bearing structure, not the shock. If the shock was bent from a hit then there would likely be a lot more bent. Your vehicle could have taken an impact underneath that bent a control arm or the rear subframe. The running board is a different point of impact, obviously.

The car should be inspected underneath and the visual measurement you are doing for camber can actually be be done more accurately with a leveler app on an smart phone. The phone needs to be held along the rim or place a uniform flat object against the wheel, then the phone. Use level ground.

A 1" lowering doesn't "scream" for rear LCA's but the negative camber will increase as you go lower. The OEM settings do have some negative camber in rear so it will be accentuated as you drop. I am on a 20 mm drop (.78") with coilovers with front camber plates. The plates increase noise/harshness as they have a pillow ball bearing.

Pretty sure you should be OK stock with TRD 1" lowering springs/Eibach Sportlines. If in 50,000 km you see notable shoulder wear on the rear tires then invest in adjustable rear LCA's going forward. I think Tcoat has TRD springs since new on stock suspension/tires without issue. The current wisdom seems to be for street use or occasoinal track, max drop 1" no absolute need for camber correction. Camber bolts in the front are cheap so maybe worth adding a bit since the rear was increased.

YMMV

I dont want to or plan to go any lower. I love my car how it sits now. Aside from neg rear cAmber.

Just so youre informed i wasnt eyeballing camber. It came back from alignment at -2.6 pass side and -.9 driver.

I thought id be ok with the trd coils aswell but i guess ordering some rear lcas are what i should do. I cant handle looking at one tire tucked under fender and one tire sticking out of fender. Looks so bad. Im sure it will effect performance too

I wont be running plates. And THANK YOU for understanding the word excentuate haha.

Youre saying i shouldnt buy new lcas?


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