My Goals with this Forum!!!

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The 'Stang would be cheaper and more reliable!

And actually be able to put the power down ha ha.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Kind of just proving a point. Without a ton of modifications this car won't be able to "beat" a brand new Camaro. Driver skill is obviously important, and I firmly believe that to be the most important thing....however, there is a huge performance deficit between the two vehicles. Comparing an experienced 86 driver to a grouping of beginner - intermediate drivers is not a fair comparison. Most of those guys are just getting used to the track and its rules and probably have instructors riding along telling them to let others pass.

Comparing an 86 to a new gen Pony Car is like comparing apples to kumquats! Yes, the old gens were wallowing boats but neither the new Camaros nor Mustangs are anymore. They are starting to actually become the "sports cars" that they have so often been called.


I know that many feel this is a track based forum but I still chuckle as soon as the whole "but on the track..." thing starts. I have no idea what the percentage of time on a track (these cars that actually see one ever) but bet there are so many zeros between the decimal point and the number it is silly. On the street all the HP and goodies of the SS or GT are wasted most of the time no matter how good the driver is. The 86 has the advantage of it can actually use 80% of it's abilities instead of about 15% (there is a valid reason for all the Mustang crashing memes). The bloody thing was built to entertain and engage the driver in a different way than the Pony Cars and it does that very well. People that want Pony Car performance and style of driving should have bought one.


Now as far as the whole "put this that or the other engine in it" thing goes that is a whole different story. Those engine swapped, reinforced, huge wheeled, heavily modified Frankenstein's that are getting Pony Car drag times are NOT fucking FRSs or BRZs! They are basic components of them yes but they no longer should be called the name. The minute that engine comes out and everything is swapped to support the "upgrade" it is now just a Twin shell on a whole new platform.


I love my car but am under no illusions that it will ever EVER compete with the likes of top trim Camaros and Mustangs driven by another driver with the same level of skill that I have. It wasn't meant to compete with them from the start and anybody that thinks it was needs to wake up.

[scmil95eg]

Add 150hp to achieve the same power/weight:

455/3685=8.09 lbs per hp

200/2800=14 lbs per hp
350/2800=8 lbs per hp

[FX86]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Comparing an 86 to a new gen Pony Car is like comparing apples to kumquats! Yes, the old gens were wallowing boats but neither the new Camaros nor Mustangs are anymore. They are starting to actually become the "sports cars" that they have so often been called.


I know that many feel this is a track based forum but I still chuckle as soon as the whole "but on the track..." thing starts. I have no idea what the percentage of time on a track (these cars that actually see one ever) but bet there are so many zeros between the decimal point and the number it is silly. On the street all the HP and goodies of the SS or GT are wasted most of the time no matter how good the driver is. The 86 has the advantage of it can actually use 80% of it's abilities instead of about 15% (there is a valid reason for all the Mustang crashing memes). The bloody thing was built to entertain and engage the driver in a different way than the Pony Cars and it does that very well. People that want Pony Car performance and style of driving should have bought one.


Now as far as the whole "put this that or the other engine in it" thing goes that is a whole different story. Those engine swapped, reinforced, huge wheeled, heavily modified Frankenstein's that are getting Pony Car drag times are NOT fucking FRSs or BRZs! They are basic components of them yes but they no longer should be called the name. The minute that engine comes out and everything is swapped to support the "upgrade" it is now just a Twin shell on a whole new platform.


I love my car but am under no illusions that it will ever EVER compete with the likes of top trim Camaros and Mustangs driven by another driver with the same level of skill that I have. It wasn't meant to compete with them from the start and anybody that thinks it was needs to wake up.

comment of the year for me...summed up my thoughts exactly when the fr-s is compared to the other sports cars

[scmil95eg]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I know that many feel this is a track based forum but I still chuckle as soon as the whole "but on the track..." thing starts. I have no idea what the percentage of time on a track (these cars that actually see one ever) but bet there are so many zeros between the decimal point and the number it is silly.

lol - you sound like me talking about peak HP numbers. "you're there how often? and for how long? and you're going to spend how much for the ability to brag on a forum?"

[geezerbrzeezer]

Best solution - edit your initial post font size to forum default. This will have as much of an effect on 86 vs Camaro as, well, just about fucking anything else.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Comparing an 86 to a new gen Pony Car is like comparing apples to kumquats! Yes, the old gens were wallowing boats but neither the new Camaros nor Mustangs are anymore. They are starting to actually become the "sports cars" that they have so often been called.


I know that many feel this is a track based forum but I still chuckle as soon as the whole "but on the track..." thing starts. I have no idea what the percentage of time on a track (these cars that actually see one ever) but bet there are so many zeros between the decimal point and the number it is silly. On the street all the HP and goodies of the SS or GT are wasted most of the time no matter how good the driver is. The 86 has the advantage of it can actually use 80% of it's abilities instead of about 15% (there is a valid reason for all the Mustang crashing memes). The bloody thing was built to entertain and engage the driver in a different way than the Pony Cars and it does that very well. People that want Pony Car performance and style of driving should have bought one.


I love my car but am under no illusions that it will ever EVER compete with the likes of top trim Camaros and Mustangs driven by another driver with the same level of skill that I have. It wasn't meant to compete with them from the start and anybody that thinks it was needs to wake up.

THIS is what I'm always trying to convey. Although I still believe the car needs more power to bring the fun level up.

Originally Posted by scmil95eg

Add 150hp to achieve the same power/weight:

455/3685=8.09 lbs per hp

200/2800=14 lbs per hp
350/2800=8 lbs per hp

LOL ye olde mandatory peak HP per lb comment.

[scmil95eg]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

LOL ye olde mandatory peak HP per lb comment.

Perfectly relevant for this bench race. :shrug:

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by scmil95eg

Add 150hp to achieve the same power/weight:

455/3685=8.09 lbs per hp

200/2800=14 lbs per hp
350/2800=8 lbs per hp

I made this argument to my wife involving my BRZ vs. her 328i. Which the BRZ won, by the way. She told me I needed to find a hobby. I told her coming up with irrelevant statistics was my hobby. She told me I needed to find another hobby.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Kind of just proving a point. Without a ton of modifications this car won't be able to "beat" a brand new Camaro. Driver skill is obviously important, and I firmly believe that to be the most important thing....however, there is a huge performance deficit between the two vehicles. Comparing an experienced 86 driver to a grouping of beginner - intermediate drivers is not a fair comparison. Most of those guys are just getting used to the track and its rules and probably have instructors riding along telling them to let others pass.

The only reason I posted in this thread is to state that no amount of money spent on modifications or faster cars will overcome a talent deficit.

The reality is if OP actually goes out and tries to measure up to others at an autocross or HPDE, nobody is going to make it fair for him. He'll be on track with other 'first timers' that have more prior experience and blow his doors off in a stock NA Miata, no matter what he does to his FRS. And odds are it will only happen more frequently as he moves out of novice groups into the big boy pool unless he puts some serious work in.

Without a ton of modifications this car won't be able to "beat" a brand new Camaro.

In what context? In terms of benchracing idealized test scenarios?

Who gives a shit?

I started going in depth, but then I decided I didn't care enough to finish it. The tl;dr is if you go back and look at the autocross results the STX FRS/BRZ's are about 0.2s slower than the F Street Camaro's and Mustangs, ballpark it's about $7k-$12k to build a competitive STX car but 90% of the performance is header, tune, wheels and tires, coilovers and alignment which can be done for about $6k. Add FI to that recipe and boom, your 86 is probably faster than a new Pony car at an autocross (or tight road course, modern autocrosses are big and sweeping to interest modern pony cars, corvettes, porsche's etc.) after about $10k invested into it.

To my knowledge the '16 Camaro SS has only been on Streets of Willow and landed a 1:22, current lap record in 86 cup in 'unlimited class' is 1:25

https://www.86cup.us/records/

I'd suspect similar minimum price of entry for that, somewhere between $10k-$15k to be 3s slower than a new Camaro. By looking up Laguna Seca stuff I think that will also be roughly in the same ballpark, ~3s slower than an SS. To 'beat' one on track, I think you're right, tens of thousands of dollars plus the skill and talent to put out a lap on par with professional racing drivers.

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

THIS is what I'm always trying to convey. Although I still believe the car needs more power to bring the fun level up.

LOL ye olde mandatory peak HP per lb comment.

oh, then you did a very poor job of it.

[NyC Zn6]

OP couldn't handle the truth

[NOHOME]

This car's superpower is being 1000 lbs lighter than the Camaro. If you cant appreciate the driving benefits of being that light, you bought the wrong car.

If you want to toss the gauntlet at the Pony Cars, ask them if they can shed the extra weight.

[Teseo]

Amuse me, we still debating this topic?

[ORGANIZED-CHAOS]

WOW, let the roasting begin, lol. I had a good laugh with majority of your responses. I should have seen that coming.

SO WHY THE 2017 CAMARO SS???

The Camaro SS or Mustang GT, either would make a feasible goal. But I'm not going to open that can of worms of which is better than the other. So the only reason I want to stay competitive with these cars is because I'm tired of seeing these cars pull or drive next to me reving their engines and accelerating and decelerating. Crap, the other day I even had a Sonata turbo rev his engine at me at a red light. I just want enough power to get the respect of these vehicles who seem to bully my car on the road.

But I'm not drag racing these cars. I'm not flying through a track. I just want to pull before them on a rolling start and get them frustrated for how difficult it is to catch up to me. I know it may sound silly but it's just difficult to put in words what I want to achieve.