Had wheel come off while driving..

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Tire shops have the worst coffee though.

Oh, just take along a airline bottle of brandy and pour in it ......


humfrz

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on the use of an impact gun to tighten lugs. That's all well and good until you have a flat on the side of the road, and don't have your impact gun, and suddenly you can't get the lugs off by hand. I've helped several people remove lugs that were clearly put on by a tire shop with an impact gun and in some cases we actually DID have to resort to the "find a 300 lb guy and ask him to jump on the wrench" method.

This frustrates the hell out of me because the whole goddamned point to having a spare tire is to be able to change it yourself in an emergency. The whole concept of a spare tire goes out the window if someone has to call AAA because some idiot torqued their lugs to 5 million lb-ft.

Add a $3 piece of pipe to your tire kit. Instant cheater bar. Now a 90-pound girl can remove your torqued-to-f*ck lugs. I know, because I've given a piece of pipe to a few 90 pound girls for that reason. Oh that sounded bad.

Also for you correct torque nazis. You know that normal clamping force variation with torque-only tightening control is 40 percent right? Why do you think all the really important ones (like the cylinder head) use torque-angle tightening control? Oh, and torque settings do not account for run-down friction either? Hope the nut or its mating surface isn't pitted or corroded, you know, like a used one...

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

I knew I wasn't the only one who remembered those ads!

For those who were too young or the elders that have poor memories ......

humfrz

[gravitylover]

I keep a really long handled 1/2" drive ratchet with a 19mm socket in the car rather than trust that the factory lug wrench will be sufficient when I need it. The same wrench is also the one I use to install/remove my hitch mounted bike rack, bonus.

[lupindub]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Well, now lupindub, I reckon you didn't do it right the first time ...... or ..... you had the studs oiled up ........


humfrz

Could be I didn't tighten down enough, although I tighten my other two sets of wheel in the same fashion. Only my recent wheel's are the only one giving me problems.

It could also be due to the concavity (not sure if this is a real word) of the lug stud hole on my new wheel's is so much more angled compared to the stock wheel's or my winter wheel's. I think the concavity of the lug stud hole on the wheel makes it easier for the nut to back out.



compared to stock

[lupindub]

Also, if you are in a pinch and somebody or you over torqued the nut, you can always use the factory scissor jack + breaker bar to remove stubborn nuts.

Just use the jack to push the breaker bar up to loosen. (Got to be real careful when doing this though, as the bar could go flying away if you jack it up too fast.)

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by lupindub

Could be I didn't tighten down enough, although I tighten my other two sets of wheel in the same fashion. Only my recent wheel's are the only one giving me problems.

It could also be due to the concavity (not sure if this is a real word) of the lug stud hole on my new wheel's is so much more angled compared to the stock wheel's or my winter wheel's. I think the concavity of the lug stud hole on the wheel makes it easier for the nut to back out.

hmmmmm........I would think that the "concavity" of the seat on a rim for a lug nut should be standardized ...... ??

Are you sure your lug nut wrench/socket is not binding on the sides of the wheel and giving you the "feel" that the lug nuts are tight .. ??


humfrz

[extrashaky]

Jeez, how did I miss this thread?

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not like you can over torque them really.

I have to pile on here. You can overtorque them, which can stretch the studs, which then makes it difficult to get them tightened again, which leads to additional overtightening, which eventually causes failure. It's not like you have to carry a torque wrench in the car with you, but it's really a basic part of the tool kit that ought to be in the garage. I have replacement axles for my Jeep, and one of them has some stretched lugs on it that I'll have to replace before I'll feel comfortable using it, the result of someone getting overzealous with a wrench.

Furthermore, overtightening can make it a bitch to get the nuts off some cars. I had to have mine extracted off my Jeep by a tire shop because the idiot who put the last tires on overtightened them, and the two-piece lug nuts came apart when I tried to change a tire.

I replaced them all with spline drive and made sure they were torqued correctly. I liked them so much I put spline drive nuts on my BRZ as well.

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

I've helped several people remove lugs that were clearly put on by a tire shop with an impact gun and in some cases we actually DID have to resort to the "find a 300 lb guy and ask him to jump on the wrench" method.

A good tire shop will use torque adjustable impact wrenches that are regulated so they don't overtorque, and they'll dial in the appropriate torque for the hub they're working on. Unfortunately there are a lot of mediocre tire shops that don't bother.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Jeez, how did I miss this thread?



I have to pile on here. You can overtorque them, which can stretch the studs, which then makes it difficult to get them tightened again, which leads to additional overtightening, which eventually causes failure. It's not like you have to carry a torque wrench in the car with you, but it's really a basic part of the tool kit that ought to be in the garage..................

WOW - you ARE late to this party.......

Well, extrashaky, I sort of agree with you.

If a person is "new" to the automotive world, it would probably be a good idea to use a torque wrench to tighten up lug nuts.

And yes, a torque wrench is absolutely necessary in the tool box to torque down head bolts .... not that many of us ever do that anymore.

Yes, I can see why tire shops use impact wrenches but, my gripe is that sometimes they DO NOT set them properly nor do the use the proper torque stick.

What I think ol @Tcoat was getten at was that it's pretty hard to over torque lug nuts using a little common sense and a hand held lug wrench (without any extensions or jumping on it).

The common since part comes in by realizing if you are tightening the lugs on your lawn tractor OR the rear wheels of a farm tractor.

Over the past 60 years I've tightened lug nuts on everything from my little red wagon to 10 hole bud wheels on semi-tractor trailers and huge John Deere tractors ....... and I never have broken off a stud or lost a wheel.

Never have used a torque wrench for lug nuts.....


humfrz - old two squeaks and a grunt..........

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I will rephrase. I would tighten them as much as I could by using my arms and then give another tug with my arms. I am not Hercules so doubt I ever once over torqued a lug nut.
Also a good number of those broken lugs will have nothing to do with torque and much more to do with side loading the lug. Pretty hard to maintain even loading when you are jumping on one side of a lug wrench.


EDIT: LOL What Spart just said^^^^^

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Jeez, how did I miss this thread?



I have to pile on here. You can overtorque them, which can stretch the studs, which then makes it difficult to get them tightened again, which leads to additional overtightening, which eventually causes failure. It's not like you have to carry a torque wrench in the car with you, but it's really a basic part of the tool kit that ought to be in the garage. I have replacement axles for my Jeep, and one of them has some stretched lugs on it that I'll have to replace before I'll feel comfortable using it, the result of someone getting overzealous with a wrench.

Furthermore, overtightening can make it a bitch to get the nuts off some cars. I had to have mine extracted off my Jeep by a tire shop because the idiot who put the last tires on overtightened them, and the two-piece lug nuts came apart when I tried to change a tire.

I replaced them all with spline drive and made sure they were torqued correctly. I liked them so much I put spline drive nuts on my BRZ as well.



A good tire shop will use torque adjustable impact wrenches that are regulated so they don't overtorque, and they'll dial in the appropriate torque for the hub they're working on. Unfortunately there are a lot of mediocre tire shops that don't bother.

Originally Posted by humfrz

WOW - you ARE late to this party.......

Well, extrashaky, I sort of agree with you.

If a person is "new" to the automotive world, it would probably be a good idea to use a torque wrench to tighten up lug nuts.

And yes, a torque wrench is absolutely necessary in the tool box to torque down head bolts .... not that many of us ever do that anymore.

Yes, I can see why tire shops use impact wrenches but, my gripe is that sometimes they DO NOT set them properly nor do the use the proper torque stick.

What I think ol @Tcoat was getten at was that it's pretty hard to over torque lug nuts using a little common sense and a hand held lug wrench (without any extensions or jumping on it).

The common since part comes in by realizing if you are tightening the lugs on your lawn tractor OR the rear wheels of a farm tractor.

Over the past 60 years I've tightened lug nuts on everything from my little red wagon to 10 hole bud wheels on semi-tractor trailers and huge John Deere tractors ....... and I never have broken off a stud or lost a wheel.

Never have used a torque wrench for lug nuts.....


humfrz - old two squeaks and a grunt..........

What Hum said and what I clarified.
If you are able to over torque lug nuts enough to stretch the stud and weaken the hardened steel using a proper lug wrench and just your arms you need to join the Avengers or XMen. I don't care how strong you think you are there is not a hope in hell you are going to do it.
A torque wrench is a very important tool for those applications where too much or too little force is going to cause issues but putting wheels on tight enough yet not too tight does not require that level of precision.

[lupindub]

Originally Posted by humfrz

hmmmmm........I would think that the "concavity" of the seat on a rim for a lug nut should be standardized ...... ??

Are you sure your lug nut wrench/socket is not binding on the sides of the wheel and giving you the "feel" that the lug nuts are tight .. ??


humfrz

Nope the wrench never even touches the side of the wheels since the wrench itself is angled.

I actually took my lugnuts off the first time I put them on thinking something was wrong and just to inspect the lugs and lo'and behold the sides of the lug nut was way more scratched up compared to before. So yeah, like you mentioned it could be that the lug nuts are binding to the side of the wheel causing it to feel tight... not the wrench/socket... i'm sure this is what you meant right?

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

If you are able to over torque lug nuts enough to stretch the stud and weaken the hardened steel using a proper lug wrench and just your arms you need to join the Avengers or XMen. I don't care how strong you think you are there is not a hope in hell you are going to do it.

I'm not sure that's true. When I torque mine to 89 ft lbs with my torque wrench, I'm certainly not at the limit of my strength, and I'm not all that strong. I was actually pretty surprised how little effort it took to get them to the proper torque. I couldn't snap a stud the first time the rims were pulled off, but if I were swapping tires frequently I could likely do some cumulative damage. As has been noted, people do have issues with overtightening.

Furthermore, not everyone uses a "proper lug wrench." A few people in this thread have talked about using impact wrenches. Some of them may have been lucky because they weren't using a wrench with a lot of power. Additionally, if you use a breaker bar to get the lugs off (I usually do), it's quite tempting to use it to tighten them also if someone on the internet told you that you can't overtighten a lug nut and you believed it.

On a different note...

This is unrelated (the guy used the wrong lug nuts), but I keep thinking of it when reading this thread:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhI3DJdjSYQ"]RX7 wheels fall off - YouTube[/ame]

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Jeez, how did I miss this thread?

I have to pile on here. You can overtorque them, which can stretch the studs, which then makes it difficult to get them tightened again, which leads to additional overtightening, which eventually causes failure. It's not like you have to carry a torque wrench in the car with you, but it's really a basic part of the tool kit that ought to be in the garage. I have replacement axles for my Jeep, and one of them has some stretched lugs on it that I'll have to replace before I'll feel comfortable using it, the result of someone getting overzealous with a wrench.

Furthermore, overtightening can make it a bitch to get the nuts off some cars. I had to have mine extracted off my Jeep by a tire shop because the idiot who put the last tires on overtightened them, and the two-piece lug nuts came apart when I tried to change a tire.

I replaced them all with spline drive and made sure they were torqued correctly. I liked them so much I put spline drive nuts on my BRZ as well.

A good tire shop will use torque adjustable impact wrenches that are regulated so they don't overtorque, and they'll dial in the appropriate torque for the hub they're working on. Unfortunately there are a lot of mediocre tire shops that don't bother.

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I'm not sure that's true. When I torque mine to 89 ft lbs with my torque wrench, I'm certainly not at the limit of my strength, and I'm not all that strong. I was actually pretty surprised how little effort it took to get them to the proper torque. I couldn't snap a stud the first time the rims were pulled off, but if I were swapping tires frequently I could likely do some cumulative damage. As has been noted, people do have issues with overtightening.

Furthermore, not everyone uses a "proper lug wrench." A few people in this thread have talked about using impact wrenches. Some of them may have been lucky because they weren't using a wrench with a lot of power. Additionally, if you use a breaker bar to get the lugs off (I usually do), it's quite tempting to use it to tighten them also if someone on the internet told you that you can't overtighten a lug nut and you believed it.

Well, you presented a good fair number of pretty shaky assertions there. One could even0 call them... Extra shaky.

Jokes aside, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation in your posts.

First, yes, any bolt can be overtorqued enough to stretch it.

Second, torque settings alone are an incredibly inaccurate way to ensure correct fastener preload. That is a fact, we can argue the engineering details if you like.

Third, most impact wrenches are adjustable, but none of them, not even one, delivers consistent performance. This is by the nature of delivery. The short duration pulses transfer energy in a discontinuous fashion, the final clamp load is influenced heavily by the frictional coefficients of both the threads and the surface which bears the clamp loads. It is also affected by the spring coefficients of the joint material, the heat generated during tightening, and the motion of the gun. This can be demonstrably proven.

Fourth, even with a powerful impact gun, you are unlikely to even damage a lug, much less break it.

Fifth, all steel fasteners stretch when loads are applied. This is called elastic deformation, and it's what gives the bolted joint it's tensile load. For all intents and purposes, elastic deformation in steel can be repeated an infinite number of times without causing fatigue or failure. In other words, no, they can be "overtorqued" an infinite number of times without causing "cumulative damage."

If they are stretched beyond the yield point, they will undergo plastic deformation, which is irreversible and causes damage, usually visible. These are your "stretched lugs." That is "cumulative damage." But in order to do that to a normal, undamaged wheel stud, you have to have an extra bigass breaker bar or you need to join the avengers.

Did you know, for example that if you torque a fastener, then remove, clean, and lubricate it, and apply the same torque again, you will almost double the tensile load applied to that very same fastener? Yes, that $40 Sears click-wrench is a proper precision instrument, you know. *sigh* A $300 digital torque wrench is subject to the same problems and limitations.

For that matter, I have replaced hundreds of wheels with impact wrenches. Never lost one. Never had anybody else lose one.

Now what's really funny is watching people replace components with different and dissimilar ones, sometimes made of different materials than the factory components, and then faithfully copy the torque specs right out of the manual. Now that is UN-F*CKING-SAFE For reasons I can demonstrably prove over and over and over.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Well, you presented a good fair number of pretty shaky assertions there. One could even0 call them... Extra shaky.

Jokes aside, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation in your posts.

First, yes, any bolt can be overtorqued enough to stretch it.

Second, torque settings alone are an incredibly inaccurate way to ensure correct fastener preload. That is a fact, we can argue the engineering details if you like.

Third, most impact wrenches are adjustable, but none of them, not even one, delivers consistent performance. This is by the nature of delivery. The short duration pulses transfer energy in a discontinuous fashion, the final clamp load is influenced heavily by the frictional coefficients of both the threads and the surface which bears the clamp loads. It is also affected by the spring coefficients of the joint material, the heat generated during tightening, and the motion of the gun. This can be demonstrably proven.

Fourth, even with a powerful impact gun, you are unlikely to even damage a lug, much less break it.

Fifth, all steel fasteners stretch when loads are applied. This is called elastic deformation, and it's what gives the bolted joint it's tensile load. For all intents and purposes, elastic deformation in steel can be repeated an infinite number of times without causing fatigue or failure. In other words, no, they can be "overtorqued" an infinite number of times without causing "cumulative damage."

If they are stretched beyond the yield point, they will undergo plastic deformation, which is irreversible and causes damage, usually visible. These are your "stretched lugs." That is "cumulative damage." But in order to do that to a normal, undamaged wheel stud, you have to have an extra bigass breaker bar or you need to join the avengers.

Did you know, for example that if you torque a fastener, then remove, clean, and lubricate it, and apply the same torque again, you will almost double the tensile load applied to that very same fastener? Yes, that $40 Sears click-wrench is a proper precision instrument, you know. *sigh* A $300 digital torque wrench is subject to the same problems and limitations.

For that matter, I have replaced hundreds of wheels with impact wrenches. Never lost one. Never had anybody else lose one.

Now what's really funny is watching people replace components with different and dissimilar ones, sometimes made of different materials than the factory components, and then faithfully copy the torque specs right out of the manual. Now that is UN-F*CKING-SAFE For reasons I can demonstrably prove over and over and over.

Well, I guess I've been schooled.

And yet I still have stretched lug studs on one of my axles from a previous owner overtightening them and still intend to use the appropriate torque specs on my vehicles. So it looks like all that impressive technobabble really didn't accomplish anything. But at least you feel good about yourself now, and that's always a positive.