another coilover question

[Tor]

It's nice to have vendors contribute with knowledge. But this is borderlining shameless self-promotion.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Cartman

If you run a car with coilovers on OEM primacy vs a stock car on Hankook TD, of course its going to be slower... but that is a stupid comparison

Same tires on oem suspension, vs $1000 coilovers, all else being equal, and assuming a competent driver, he'll be faster on oem suspension.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Same tires on oem suspension, vs $1000 coilovers, all else being equal, and assuming a competent driver, he'll be faster on oem suspension.

No he wont, unless he's running megans or some other chinese crap

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Cartman

No he wont, unless he's running megans or some other chinese crap

$1000 coilovers are $1000 coilovers.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

$1000 coilovers are $1000 coilovers.

Then by your logic I should be as fast as FR-S running $3500 Ohlins if I where to run OEM suspension... Because a local driver did 1:28 on 2 almost identical FR-S with the exception that one is running Ohlins, and the other is on $1100 Fortune Auto Coilover setup.

[Tokay444]

I said competent driver.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

I said competent driver.

Because an instructor isn't a competent driver...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Cartman

Then by your logic I should be as fast as FR-S running $3500 Ohlins if I where to run OEM suspension... Because a local driver did 1:28 on 2 almost identical FR-S with the exception that one is running Ohlins, and the other is on $1100 Fortune Auto Coilover setup.

Check out the difference it makes in autocross, STX cars can put any coilover they want and run 245 wide 200TW tires, CS is limited to OE springs or TRD and OE replacement damper with non adjustable perches and 1 way adjustable damping (basically all are running Koni, a few on Bilstein and other dampers) with the same available compounds typically in 215/225 size.

The difference is < 2s over a ~60s course with some of the best drivers in the nation, and the courses aren't exactly slow parking lots anymore...

[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3LWj5njq-yQ[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9l8SwXTSPg"]FRS AutoX - Crows Tour 2016 Day1 - Jonathan Run 2 - YouTube[/ame]


But op doesn't give a fuck about what's fastest per dollar, the point of the videos is that shiny and fancy isn't that much faster and the point of diminishing returns happens quite quickly in these cars. Spend <$3k and run a 63.4 or spend >$6k and run a 62.4?

The biggest differences between that CS car and a car off the showroom floor are the tires and the driver. The dampers were <$1k off the shelf, maybe a revalve on them, that STX car is running whatever springs, dampers, and alignment the owner wants.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Check out the difference it makes in autocross, STX cars can put any coilover they want and run 245 wide 200TW tires, CS is limited to OE springs or TRD and OE replacement damper with non adjustable perches and 1 way adjustable damping (basically all are running Koni, a few on Bilstein and other dampers) with the same available compounds typically in 215/225 size.

The difference is < 2s over a ~60s course with some of the best drivers in the nation, and the courses aren't exactly slow parking lots anymore...

But op doesn't give a fuck about what's fastest per dollar, the point of the videos is that shiny and fancy isn't that much faster and the point of diminishing returns happens quite quickly in these cars. Spend <$3k and run a 63.4 or spend >$6k and run a 62.4?

The biggest differences between that CS car and a car off the showroom floor are the tires and the driver. The dampers were <$1k off the shelf, maybe a revalve on them, that STX car is running whatever springs, dampers, and alignment the owner wants.

I would hardly call cone dodging a reliable test to say that $1000 coilvers aren't better than OEM suspension

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Cartman

I would hardly call cone dodging a reliable test to say that $1000 coilvers aren't better than OEM suspension

You misunderstand, I'm saying that ~$1k on upgrading OE suspension with Koni yellows, crash bolts, and TRD springs is near as makes no difference as fast as spending >$3k on custom valved Ohlins, JRZ, RCE KW's or Teins along with camber plates and LCA's to the average driver. And the STX cars get the bonus of two more inches of wheel to mount rubber on and are limited to the same compounds, oh and I forgot the catless header and tune good for ~20hp earlier.

As for it not being reliable I'd say it's more reliable than anything posted in this thread so far given a standard set of rules and comparing runs on the same course the same day with drivers that can be nationally compared.

'dodging cones'
Pobst did Laguna Seca in 1:51 in a stock 86, that's an average speed of ~72mph.
R&T's Lightning lap at VIR was 3:18, ~75 mph average speed.
That course was ~1.1 miles, with a 63s time that's an average speed of ~63mph.

That's comparing a standing start to a flying lap, attempt #3 at a course vs attempt 1,653 for some of those guys.

tl;dr on an 86 for raw speed I'll take tires over suspension any day. But this is just circlejerking now and totally irrelevant to the OP.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You misunderstand, I'm saying that ~$1k on upgrading OE suspension with Koni yellows, crash bolts, and TRD springs is near as makes no difference as fast as spending >$3k on custom valved Ohlins, JRZ, RCE KW's or Teins along with camber plates and LCA's to the average driver. And the STX cars get the bonus of two more inches of wheel to mount rubber on and are limited to the same compounds, oh and I forgot the catless header and tune good for ~20hp earlier.

As for it not being reliable I'd say it's more reliable than anything posted in this thread so far given a standard set of rules and comparing runs on the same course the same day with drivers that can be nationally compared.

'dodging cones'
Pobst did Laguna Seca in 1:51 in a stock 86, that's an average speed of ~72mph.
R&T's Lightning lap at VIR was 3:18, ~75 mph average speed.
That course was ~1.1 miles, with a 63s time that's an average speed of ~63mph.

That's comparing a standing start to a flying lap, attempt #3 at a course vs attempt 1,653 for some of those guys.

tl;dr on an 86 for raw speed I'll take tires over suspension any day. But this is just circlejerking now and totally irrelevant to the OP.

But if you're spending about 1K on that, why not get a coilover system that is around the same price... and will most likely give a better ride (Teins) than springs and bottles (I'm running Swift Spec-r springs and koni shock and it isn't the most comfortable ride)

I will be mounting R-comps for my next track day and see how close I get to the guys with coilovers, but so far I'm 4.7 seconds behind on 225/45/17 Hankook R-S3, vs their 255/40 Hankook TD (and a few HP less)

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Cartman

But if you're spending about 1K on that, why not get a coilover system that is around the same price... and will most likely give a better ride (Teins) than springs and bottles (I'm running Swift Spec-r springs and koni shock and it isn't the most comfortable ride)

Because I've seen zero evidence that <$1k Taiwanese made dampers have the same durability, quality, or consistency of Koni or Bilstein at the same price point.

Plenty of people are happy with them and will continue to be, personally, I'm not a gambling man.

[MeisterR]

Quite a few thing so let me clear a few things:

Originally Posted by Tor

It's nice to have vendors contribute with knowledge. But this is borderlining shameless self-promotion.

I guess you can say that.
And in a way I do understand the reason how this thread got quite fired up.
There are lots of "suspension manufacturer" in this price segment that wouldn't know motion ratio from damping ratio.
They buy what ever they can get, "choose a colour", and try to sell as many box as they can to make money.

However, not taking into account of the years we been developing the MeisterR coilovers.
Designing the bespoke parts for the new ZetaCRD from our previous Zeta series took a good 6 months of continuous research and development.
Everything from testing damper dyno of different shims assembly, damper shaft size choice, CAD design of our new UK patenting collars using Solidworks, prototyping, and misc. minor improvement.

When you group all the sub $1000 coilovers in the same group, what it does is that it undermined all the hard work we done on the MeisterR coilovers.
Which is why I feel I should defend this a bit because while many suspension manufacturer maybe clueless, not ALL of them are clueless within the sub $1000 coilovers category.

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Meister, at what piston speed do you start to cavitate/boil the area behind the piston, and what do you do to prevent this phenomenon?

That isn't something we measured, because it is vehicle dynamically irrelevant.
Cavitation are caused by negative pressure, and it is a combination of cracking pressure, oil viscosity, flow, etc.

One of the advantage of a mono-tube damper is you have a high pressure air chamber on the other side of the floating piston that will over come the cracking pressure to ensure you don't get negative pressure.

We don't see cavitation at 250mm/s, the speed where the damping figure is still vehicle dynamically relevant.
We don't see it at 400mm/s, the speed where one would expect driving over the Belgium Pave at the Milbrooks Proving Ground.
We don't see it at 1000mm/s, the speed where the damper dyno is starting to jump of the floor.

So if you don't see it within any of those speed, you can pretty much say it isn't something you have to worry about unless you are intending to jump off hump back bridges on a rally stage.
And in those case the ZetaCRD probably isn't the right suspension for you.

Jerrick

[MeisterR]

Now that is out of the way, i think we should focus back to the OP questions.

Originally Posted by brz fred

First off I want to express how much I don't want to make another coilover question thread, specially this kinda being my first post. I've been looking for about 2 weeks and haven't found the answer I'm looking for. That being said I'm looking to purchase a set of coilovers in the next day or two. This is for a DD maybe spirited driving on occasion. I'd like to stay around $1,000, has a camber adjustment plate and dampening adjustment. So0o with that being said, I've narrowed it down to the apexi n1s, the flex z(on backorder) and a set of BCs(tho i'm questioning the 8k rates). Honestly I'm kinda set on the APEXi but i'd like to hear if anyone's had any bad experiences with these before i spend the money. I'd appreciate a link to a review on the N1s if anyone finds one, the 86insider post doesn't count.

Originally Posted by Cartman

I would hardly call cone dodging a reliable test to say that $1000 coilvers aren't better than OEM suspension

This bring up a very good question, what is a “BETTER” suspension?

If you can drop 2 seconds off your lap time, but it feels like riding on 4 stick of wood when you are daily driving on the freeway, is that suspension better?
I think when one make recommendation, you first got to ask what is the driver trying to achieve.

In this case, the OP are looking for a suspension for a DD and spirited driving.
Camber adjustments plate with damping adjustments.

So what that mean is OP want a suspension that they can daily in comfort, be compliant over uneven road surfaces, be responsive for spirited driving, and have adjustment available to tune to his preference.

So a sensible spring coilovers with matching damper valving that will allow the driver to fine tune to his preference.
Now what he purchase will ultimately be up to him, but for a DD, the most important I feel is comfort and compliancy.
You want the suspension to be responsive, and compliant over uneven road surfaces because that is what going to delivery confidence in driving the car.

Anyone can work with the OEM suspension, but one can “ENJOY” the car a lot more with a set of suspension that provide controlled body roll as well as sharper steering response.
A more planted feeling give the driver more confidence to push the car harder.

You are not going to drive the car 100% on the road because that is just stupid.
But a car that is more pose will be a lot more enjoyable, and that is what a DD is all about.
The suspension that provide more enjoyment is the “better” suspension, at least in what the OP is asking for.

Jerrick