Anyone Planning to Build a Muffler Like This?

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Per the Scion FRS NCF:

Darn, conflict of information? Someone (I think a tuning company?) said the stock system was aluminized steel.

If it's stainless steel that's great, but how many (say, <50k) cars come with not-mild-steel exhausts?

[Mild2Wild]

Fun is, of course, the most important aspect, tbh. If simply a change of exhaust note suits your needs, then stick with it. For those who desire more hp, there is room for that, too.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Darn, conflict of information? Someone (I think a tuning company?) said the stock system was aluminized steel.

If it's stainless steel that's great, but how many (say, <50k) cars come with not-mild-steel exhausts?

The NCF is The Toyota New Car Features guide. It is a factory publication, and it is issued straight from the engineering departments. You can count on it being correct. It is possible the MUFFLER is aluminized steel, but Toyota uses stainless on just about all their exhaust piping these days. Too many problems in northern climates otherwise. I will check with a magnet later.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Darn, conflict of information? Someone (I think a tuning company?) said the stock system was aluminized steel.

If it's stainless steel that's great, but how many (say, <50k) cars come with not-mild-steel exhausts?

It's actually pretty common, except that they use shitty 400 series, most of the time. But it's a step up from aluminized mild steel.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

The NCF is The Toyota New Car Features guide. It is a factory publication, and it is issued straight from the engineering departments. You can count on it being correct. It is possible the MUFFLER is aluminized steel, but Toyota uses stainless on just about all their exhaust piping these days. Too many problems in northern climates otherwise. I will check with a magnet later.

Magnet will stick to 400 series stainless.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Magnet will stick to 400 series stainless.

I am well aware. It sticks, but just barely. It is easy to tell the difference.

[phm14]

Well, so much for my holding out for a $400. muffler. Just preordered one of these:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...789#post253789

[raventare]

"Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but that set up doesn't look too bad to me. Proximity to the oil pan alone tells me that heat shield is there for a damn good reason. I also seriously doubt that the factory cats are holding back much power in the NA engine, either."
"I've also been wrenching on cars for ~35 years, and tracking my cars for ~4 years, so of course, I have my opinions just like everyone else. My post was simply my opinion on what I want as a consumer, and why I've come to the conclusion I have, for me. I'm not building a spec racer, I'm tracking a street car."
"Well, so much for my holding out for a $400. muffler"
My post was in regards to these comments...If you think that the pretzel in front of the engine, heating the oil pan and water pump (put your hands on that shield some time) looks good and that you doubt that factory cats are NOT restrictive and that evidence of this to be true is because you worked on a car for a few years, please pinch yourself and wake up. Also if you think buying an exhaust after a few days of looking based on $$$ and not actual tested performance is the best solution, especially when all the people testing their products have found a temporary block in their path (ECU) then your consumer habits are at best, in question. Asking questions is always good, unless its the same one over and over, and generally appreciated by all. Maybe in a month or two, when the Professionals have sorted out their findings and developed an exhaust system based on consumer requests, engineered and tested results and market "price points" the rest of us will get an exhaust too and we can compare notes. In the mean time enjoy your new exhaust.

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by raventare

Also if you think buying an exhaust after a few days of looking based on $$$ and not actual tested performance is the best solution, especially when all the people testing their products have found a temporary block in their path (ECU) then your consumer habits are at best, in question.

Hey, great 8th post there buddy. Have you seen any of the nameless threads, drive vids, exhaust vids, dyno sheets? You should probably stop berating people over things you have no knowledge about- these parts are well engineered and heavily tested on dynos.

[phm14]

Originally Posted by raventare

"Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but that set up doesn't look too bad to me. Proximity to the oil pan alone tells me that heat shield is there for a damn good reason. I also seriously doubt that the factory cats are holding back much power in the NA engine, either."
"I've also been wrenching on cars for ~35 years, and tracking my cars for ~4 years, so of course, I have my opinions just like everyone else. My post was simply my opinion on what I want as a consumer, and why I've come to the conclusion I have, for me. I'm not building a spec racer, I'm tracking a street car."
"Well, so much for my holding out for a $400. muffler"
My post was in regards to these comments...If you think that the pretzel in front of the engine, heating the oil pan and water pump (put your hands on that shield some time) looks good and that you doubt that factory cats are NOT restrictive and that evidence of this to be true is because you worked on a car for a few years, please pinch yourself and wake up. Also if you think buying an exhaust after a few days of looking based on $$$ and not actual tested performance is the best solution, especially when all the people testing their products have found a temporary block in their path (ECU) then your consumer habits are at best, in question. Asking questions is always good, unless its the same one over and over, and generally appreciated by all. Maybe in a month or two, when the Professionals have sorted out their findings and developed an exhaust system based on consumer requests, engineered and tested results and market "price points" the rest of us will get an exhaust too and we can compare notes. In the mean time enjoy your new exhaust.

That's funny, your 1st abrasive post was made before 2 of the 3 posts you claim to be responding to. What makes your opinion so invaluable? I see nothing helpful to anyone in either of your posts, so why don't you and your carbon fiber hood go pollute something else?

[Jason@Nameless]

A few comments on this thread. The factory exhaust is indeed 400 Series stainless. Often called ferritic stainless steel, it has a higher percentage of iron and lower nickel and chromium content than the Austenitic 300 grades of stainless or the super-austenitic grades like inconel, hastalloy, etc.

As for that muffler design, if it made good numbers on your last car, it probably features a perforated Y internal to the canister. The alternative is that it is a baffled muffler similar to the factory BRZ design. If that is the case I'd shy away from it, as there are certainly performance losses in that style of muffler vs. a straight through or non obstructed internal design.

If it's the specific sound you are looking for, a lot of the design elements of how that muffler is laid out (ie the rear circuit tubing size and length) are going to determine the frequency of the exhaust and that is all based on the engine design as well. We get people all the time asking us to make their (insert sport compact car model here) sound like our muffler delete for the 2008-2012 Subaru WRX & STi, and that's just not something that can be directly replicated from one car to the next.

As far as sound, driveability/interior sound levels at cruise, etc, the rear circuit sizing and length is the best way to eliminate drone while biasing a good sound outside of the car. Who made that muffler anyway? Somewhere else I thought I read that it was a US built MX-5 unit, perhaps a Good-Win Racing unit? I know some of their mufflers may actually have a helmholtz resonator inside of that muffler (which would lead me to believe they accomplish this through a baffled design, not with a complex bed of snakes and canisters inside of the muffler can). We've had good success with helmholtz resonators in some of our axleback designs (for example, our Hyundai Genesis 3.8R Axleback makes 20whp, has no mufflers, only two differential helmholtz designs and really does a great job at enhancing the flat plane crank sound of the big V6 with zero drone at cruise).

Here's a pic of the Genesis Axleback (or at least the business portion of it, the twin helmholtz setup - I like to call it the Jules Verne Device):



I've been contemplating trying a pair of differential sized helmholtz chambers on our muffler delete version of the BRZ exhaust....just gotta convince John to build one. They're kindof a pain in the ass to manufacture, as the require you to build a muffler delete, do a lot of driving and decibel/frequency data gathering, calculate optimal neck diameter, length, canister volume, add one, test more, then add the second to fill in any frequency islands that may still exist.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc

[Jason@Nameless]

Also to speak on the impact of high flow cats vs. stock cats, this is very much a question of location of catalytic converter and the behavior of the engine otherwise. As we have seen in the BRZ, the high flow cat does make a good impact, but not a huge one. On the Genesis 3.8R, they make almost no difference...but we still sell them to people who want to buy them. On the Jaguar XK8 & XKR, they make almost 20whp/tq on an otherwise stock car because of their location. On turbo cars they make huge power as well. We're pretty certain that a high flow cat in the header on this car is going to be the real benefit as far as catalyst modification goes. Really depends on the car.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc

[phm14]

Nice work, Jason, and interesting design/info. Looks like somebody over there knows something about exhausts, and welding. Thanks for chiming in. You guys shipping a axleback to Texas today?

[Jason@Nameless]

Originally Posted by phm14

Nice work, Jason, and interesting design/info. Looks like somebody over there knows something about exhausts, and welding. Thanks for chiming in. You guys shipping a axleback to Texas today?

I'll tell ya, as far as exhaust dynamics go, we haven't even scratched the surface, but that being said, 75-90% of the exhausts on the market for any vehicle are 'Me Too, Try One Design And Release' types of systems that lack a lot of thought when it comes to the higher end of the spectrum for exhaust tuning. We have never wanted to be that company. Every exhaust we design we try to take it up a notch in terms of manufacturability, design and performance. Still have 10-15 universal exhaust component concepts we haven't even done a first article on yet.

Not sure if you ever saw any of the wild test stuff we did for the WRX & STi Sedans, but here are some of the concepts we have played with in the past.

NSFW: Manufacturing Pr0n

Custom 1G Mazdaspeed3 Dual Exhaust w/ siamesed canister mufflers with shared ceramic wool packed chamber...this car picked up 14mph top speed on the track:





Faceted stainless 'Star Destroyer' 2011 STi Sedan Muffler alongside the non muffled stepped midpipe (that catback with or w/o mufflers makes 28-32ftlb over a Stage1 tuned baseline):



Our constant cross section equal length exhaust manifold for the STi. When you blow air through one of the primaries the system scavenges enough to hold paper down to the other three:



And the collector for that up close, all hand fabricated (soon to be precision lost wax investment cast from austenitic alloy because it's a nightmare to build):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjzZzORfvPU"]Suby STi EL Manifold Collector Fun - YouTube[/ame]


As for our release of the BRZ exhausts, the whole batch is being built right now, shooting for Monday to ship all open orders on those. Also hoping to have the 4" Muffled and Muffler Delete versions prototyped by end of next week also. Plus a few header designs!! We've only done a few N/A header designs for custom applications up to this point, but we have spent a lot of time working on the math for primary/secondary lengths, step sizing, etc. based on the best data we could gather for the FA20 (yeah, that's not easy - there isn't even any data on valve sizes in the published literature yet, nor have any of the companies who have torn down the engine shared rod lenghts, etc). Our goals are to have a shorty Tri-Y to replace the dissimilar length/swordfighting collector factory design while retaining a high flow cat for SCCA rules compliance and then some other options that should be pretty slick as well. I want to share more but I'm going to get punched if I don't keep it under my hat. :-D

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc
Want more fabrication porn? Nameless Performance on Facebook.