LSAT Advice

[kch]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Sorry guys I completely forgot to come back on here and thank everyone. The test when great, even though my head was in excruciating pain lol. I ended up getting a 162 which I am pretty content with. Thanks again everyone for all your help

Congrats!

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by kch

Congrats!

Thanks man! Now I've just been trying to get all my applications together ha ha. It's crazy how many things they charge you for, even when the application fees are waived...Makes me glad I didn't pay thousands for prep courses.

[raven1231]

Ok so update on school application status...

First off I only applied to schools within 2-4hours of driving distance because my fiancé's job is just as important to me as my future, and secondly because we have a house that we're not ready to sell.

With that out of the way the schools I applied to are

Notre Dame- USN Rank #22
Indiana University-Bloomington USN Rank #25
Ohio State University- USN Rank #30
University of Cincinnati- USN Rank #60
University of Kentucky- USN Rank #60
Case Western Reserve University USN Rank #57

I realize USN rankings aren't everything, also I am not planning on going into big law.

I have heard back from IU, UC, UK, and CWRU and got accepted into all of them. OSU said they will have their decisions out by next week, and ND I literally only applied to three weeks ago and realize that is a long shot due to applying do late.

As for aid:

Indiana University gave me a $75,000 scholarship but since Indiana's residency requirements are absurd there is noway for me to be considered in-state thus tuition would still cost me about 75k plus living expenses for 3 years (likely exceeding 100k). (2hrs away from home)

University of Cincinnati gave me a full-ride and more than likely a fellowship for the Ohio Innocence Project. I live in Cincinnati and thus living expenses would be free also, thus making my entire legal education essentially zero dollars. (20 minutes away from home)

University of Kentucky gave me a full-ride plus 15k which would cover at least a year in living expenses. I'd likely end up with 20k in loans. (1hr 40m away)

Case Western Reserve University gave me a full-ride, and a international law fellowship. They also have a certificate through their international law program that is national security focused, and a terrorism research facility. In addition their internship opportunities are endless due to a recent 4 million dollar donation. They said if there is something that you really want to do, even if it hasn't been done through us yet, we will make it happen. I would have to front three years of living expenses though so roughly 30k. (4 hours away)

I'm having a hell of a time deciding what to do. When I hear back from OSU and Notre Dame that may very well change things too, as OSU provides much of what IU does but instate residency benefits and Notre Dame is Notre Dame lol.

Any input is appreciated ha ha...

[SkiRideDrive]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Ok so update on school application status...

First off I only applied to schools within 2-4hours of driving distance because my fiancé's job is just as important to me as my future, and secondly because we have a house that we're not ready to sell.

With that out of the way the schools I applied to are

Notre Dame- USN Rank #22
Indiana University-Bloomington USN Rank #25
Ohio State University- USN Rank #30
University of Cincinnati- USN Rank #60
University of Kentucky- USN Rank #60
Case Western Reserve University USN Rank #57

I realize USN rankings aren't everything, also I am not planning on going into big law.

I have heard back from IU, UC, UK, and CWRU and got accepted into all of them. OSU said they will have their decisions out by next week, and ND I literally only applied to three weeks ago and realize that is a long shot due to applying do late.

As for aid:

Indiana University gave me a $75,000 scholarship but since Indiana's residency requirements are absurd there is noway for me to be considered in-state thus tuition would still cost me about 75k plus living expenses for 3 years (likely exceeding 100k). (2hrs away from home)

University of Cincinnati gave me a full-ride and more than likely a fellowship for the Ohio Innocence Project. I live in Cincinnati and thus living expenses would be free also, thus making my entire legal education essentially zero dollars. (20 minutes away from home)

University of Kentucky gave me a full-ride plus 15k which would cover at least a year in living expenses. I'd likely end up with 20k in loans. (1hr 40m away)

Case Western Reserve University gave me a full-ride, and a international law fellowship. They also have a certificate through their international law program that is national security focused, and a terrorism research facility. In addition their internship opportunities are endless due to a recent 4 million dollar donation. They said if there is something that you really want to do, even if it hasn't been done through us yet, we will make it happen. I would have to front three years of living expenses though so roughly 30k. (4 hours away)

I'm having a hell of a time deciding what to do. When I hear back from OSU and Notre Dame that may very well change things too, as OSU provides much of what IU does but instate residency benefits and Notre Dame is Notre Dame lol.

Any input is appreciated ha ha...

If you are not going to a top 14, I would concentrate highly on whatever option would get you out with the least amount of debt. Debt is soul crushing. Also being close to home seems to be a priority, you have one option that includes a full ride and is close to home. I would strongly consider that.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by SkiRideDrive

If you are not going to a top 14, I would concentrate highly on whatever option would get you out with the least amount of debt. Debt is soul crushing. Also being close to home seems to be a priority, you have one option that includes a full ride and is close to home. I would strongly consider that.

I appreciate the advice man. I was sort of thinking the same thing. Case Western Reserve just had me intrigued because of the unique experiential opportunities I would have there, especially given my non traditional goals. Truth be told...if I were still single I would have tried to get into Northwestern. My fiancé and I did a campus tour there and I fell in love, not to mention I lived in Chicago for 2 years and loved it...

[kch]

I say hold out for OSU. If they give you decent $$, I think it would be a better option than Cincy for long-term career options. If not, Cincy's location and scholarship money make it a no-brainer. The CW special programs sound interesting, but specialized coursework in law school isn't as important as in undergrad.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by kch

I say hold out for OSU. If they give you decent $$, I think it would be a better option than Cincy for long-term career options. If not, Cincy's location and scholarship money make it a no-brainer. The CW special programs sound interesting, but specialized coursework in law school isn't as important as in undergrad.

That's what I'm thinking. I'm going to wait until I hear back from OSU and Notre Dame. Case Western I just figured would provide an excellent networking opportunity especially given what I want to do. They are also ranked 11th in international law and have a lot of interesting courses. Although Notre Dame is ranked 7th. Hopefully I hear this week. I'll update you if I do.

[Flow]

I think you have to take a very practical approach to picking your law school: which will give you the best chance to get you the jobs/career you are looking for, but I think your first job is the most important. When applying for your first job, school is all you have on your resume. After that, you have a broader picture to point: school + 1st job experience, and with every job, your school becomes a smaller piece of the story you are telling to employers.


So, some of the things I would advise considering:

Name of the School (in a Brand sense). Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Indiana are nationally known and recognized schools. If you plan to relocate (e.g. to D.C. for federal counter-terrorism work), then it will probably help a lot to have a school that those hiring will know. In my case, I've lived all over the US, and it has helped me immeasurably to secure those positions, that I have a nationally known school on my resume. On the other hand, if you plan to stay locally, and one of the other schools has a strong local reputation (e.g. I'm now out in the Bay Area, and Santa Clara has a strong local rep in tech, so if I had known I'd end up out here, that might have been good enough.)

Your Classmates/Alumni. At many points in your career, you may need support from other lawyers, and your classmates, and then alumni, can be very good resources to help you find future jobs, or give you support on specific issues, etc. So, ask yourself who generally attends the school, and where they end up. If you want to go into the FBI, I'm betting there are a disproportional # of Notre Dame grads there. Also, look at the markets that graduates move to. I went to Michigan, and it has been useful to me that so many Michigan grads leave the state, to NY, DC, SF, Chicago, and thus I have networks, albeit thin ones, in the cities I've lived in.

Who works where you want to work. A variation on the theme above, but there are some schools that are feeders into certain professions. For example, Suffolk, in Boston, has a lot of police students, as they can get their law degree at night. If you want to go into more local law enforcement, and one of the other schools you mentioned fills a similar role, it might be a good option for you, to build the network and connections.

Financial. As mentioned by myself and others above, debt may preclude you from certain options. Going back to the fact that you want to work in federal law enforcement, those aren't usually the highest paying jobs, so you wouldn't want to come out with a debt burden that would prevent you from accepting your dream job, because you couldn't afford to live on their salary, and pay off law school. Personally, I lived like a monk for 5 years to pay off my debt, and have a job in the field I wanted, but, not everyone wants to, or can, make that sacrifice.

On a couple of the specific programs you mentioned:

Case Western's INSTITUTE FOR GLOBAL SECURITY LAW AND POLICY - on its face, this sounds cool, and up your alley (as much as I can tell over the internet based on a few posts ). But, the first thing I did was look at the Director's resume, and he seems to basically have a background in human rights law and civil rights work. But, the various 'Labs', which seem to give you an opportunity to work with, or from the perspective of, the enforcement side also seem interesting. So, you might want to talk to them, and understand how they approach the study of security law - defense or prosecution side? etc.

Ohio Innocence Project - would get you some capital crimes experience, but on the defense side. This can be a great thing, as I have a friend who spent several years on the defense side before going into prosecution/enforcement, and it helped him become a much better lawyer because he saw so many of the mistakes the prosecution side made, but not everyone looks at 'working for the other side' as a good thing.

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now, and need to get back to doing what they pay me for.

Best of luck.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by Flow

I think you have to take a very practical approach to picking your law school: which will give you the best chance to get you the jobs/career you are looking for, but I think your first job is the most important. When applying for your first job, school is all you have on your resume. After that, you have a broader picture to point: school + 1st job experience, and with every job, your school becomes a smaller piece of the story you are telling to employers.


So, some of the things I would advise considering:

Name of the School (in a Brand sense). Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Indiana are nationally known and recognized schools. If you plan to relocate (e.g. to D.C. for federal counter-terrorism work), then it will probably help a lot to have a school that those hiring will know. In my case, I've lived all over the US, and it has helped me immeasurably to secure those positions, that I have a nationally known school on my resume. On the other hand, if you plan to stay locally, and one of the other schools has a strong local reputation (e.g. I'm now out in the Bay Area, and Santa Clara has a strong local rep in tech, so if I had known I'd end up out here, that might have been good enough.)

Your Classmates/Alumni. At many points in your career, you may need support from other lawyers, and your classmates, and then alumni, can be very good resources to help you find future jobs, or give you support on specific issues, etc. So, ask yourself who generally attends the school, and where they end up. If you want to go into the FBI, I'm betting there are a disproportional # of Notre Dame grads there. Also, look at the markets that graduates move to. I went to Michigan, and it has been useful to me that so many Michigan grads leave the state, to NY, DC, SF, Chicago, and thus I have networks, albeit thin ones, in the cities I've lived in.

Who works where you want to work. A variation on the theme above, but there are some schools that are feeders into certain professions. For example, Suffolk, in Boston, has a lot of police students, as they can get their law degree at night. If you want to go into more local law enforcement, and one of the other schools you mentioned fills a similar role, it might be a good option for you, to build the network and connections.

Financial. As mentioned by myself and others above, debt may preclude you from certain options. Going back to the fact that you want to work in federal law enforcement, those aren't usually the highest paying jobs, so you wouldn't want to come out with a debt burden that would prevent you from accepting your dream job, because you couldn't afford to live on their salary, and pay off law school. Personally, I lived like a monk for 5 years to pay off my debt, and have a job in the field I wanted, but, not everyone wants to, or can, make that sacrifice.

On a couple of the specific programs you mentioned:

Case Western's INSTITUTE FOR GLOBAL SECURITY LAW AND POLICY - on its face, this sounds cool, and up your alley (as much as I can tell over the internet based on a few posts ). But, the first thing I did was look at the Director's resume, and he seems to basically have a background in human rights law and civil rights work. But, the various 'Labs', which seem to give you an opportunity to work with, or from the perspective of, the enforcement side also seem interesting. So, you might want to talk to them, and understand how they approach the study of security law - defense or prosecution side? etc.

Ohio Innocence Project - would get you some capital crimes experience, but on the defense side. This can be a great thing, as I have a friend who spent several years on the defense side before going into prosecution/enforcement, and it helped him become a much better lawyer because he saw so many of the mistakes the prosecution side made, but not everyone looks at 'working for the other side' as a good thing.

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now, and need to get back to doing what they pay me for.

Best of luck.

I cannot thank you enough for your advice. I just now saw your post and really appreciate it. I was thinking the same thing as far as the school's national reputation as well.

As for Case Western Reserve I know some of the places you can extern with are the United Nations and Interpol. Both options that I would love and that sound like they would be beneficial and very unique. Overall though I do believe Notre Dame, IU or OSU would be the best bet, that is as long as I'm not in too much debt.

Here is where I'm currently at...

UK- has been ruled out.

CWRU-I'm going to their admitted students day on Friday to talk to them more in-depth and to get a better feel of the opportunities I would have there. I also was rather disappointed with the student panel that was there too and hope to see if that changes any.

UC- I have an interview for the Ohio Innocence Project Fellowship next week.

IU-I am currently negotiating my scholarship with the admissions dean which is now working on my new offer.

OSU-Still waiting...

Notre Dame-Same as OSU...

Thanks everyone for your help so far.

[raven1231]

So I have been doing more research based on the most recent data and have came to the following point:

CWRU- Is ruled out after seeing their lackluster bar passage rates still being just that. They went up from 72% to 78% and their 10 month out employment is a dismal 66%...Not to mention Cleveland's ridiculous 18k a year COL.

So that leaves me with UC, IU, and OSU. All three of their bar passage, employment, big law employment, and salary data is relatively the same.

Bar passage rates: UC 86%, IU 94%, OSU 92%
SW Bar passage: UC 80%, IU 79%, OSU 80%
Employment at graduation: UC 47%, IU 48%, OSU 46%
Employment 10 months after graduation: UC 82%, IU 82%, OSU 89%
Salary mean: UC 45/91, IU 55/95, OSU 50/70
Cost of Living: UC Free, IU 12k, OSU 12k

All three schools were also listed on the top 50 schools to go for big law. Although they were towards the bottom which is fine since that's not what I want to do anyway.

So, now I am just waiting to hear back about IU's counteroffer and on OSU, and ND's acceptance. Not really banking on Notre Dame though since I applied so late.

[raven1231]

Well I heard back from Indiana University and they bumped their scholarship slightly to $90,000 from $75,000. So, I'd still be looking at $62,000 in tuition then would still have fees and living expenses likely putting me at around $90,000 still.

I should be hearing back from OSU and Notre Dame today. Also, have my interview for UC's Innocence Project fellowship on Monday.

[raven1231]

Heard back from OSU. I got accepted but don't know anything else. They said I would hear details about scholarship and admitted students day in the next coming weeks. Mind you I need to have a seat deposit at IU and UC by April 1st...But OSU's is May 1st.

OSU has really been behind on everything and the admission process through them has been a nightmare. Really hoping they send that information out soon. Also, still waiting on ND.

[raven1231]

Alright so I heard about scholarship at OSU. Their tuition is $29,131 a year for a total of $87,393. I was offered a merit scholarship for a total of $45,000 and a grant in the amount of $7,500. Putting my total aid at $52,500. This leaves tuition at about $34,000. I wasn't surprised because OSU is stingy on aid with an average scholarship of $8,000.

With that said I'm considering OSU and UC at this point. I have to decide on wether or not OSU is worth the $34,000 plus housing, and wether or not I'm getting that much of a better education/opportunities from OSU compared to UC.

Another consideration is that if I go to UC I could always transfer after the first year perhaps to a much better school.

I also have the interview for UC's Ohio Innocence Project Fellowship today as well so that may play into my decision also.

[Flow]

Good luck