Closed-deck FA20 ready to be dropped in !!

[Stimmed]

Nice!! Someone linked this in an Aussie FB page looks very sexy!. Just curious I tried googling I understand that it will be stronger but what are the down sides? Less cooling? harder to work on? (I'm not very mechanical minded sorry!). Thanks

[RockySDS]

Originally Posted by Stimmed

Nice!! Someone linked this in an Aussie FB page looks very sexy!. Just curious I tried googling I understand that it will be stronger but what are the down sides? Less cooling? harder to work on? (I'm not very mechanical minded sorry!). Thanks

That's a good question Stimmed. While there are a multitude of up sides, especially over sleeving a block, the down sides are more controversial.

Closed deck was something that (somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, this is just what I recall) was introduced by Subaru for rally homologation purposes, so it's a process that manufacturers have used in the past. Which tells you a thing about its robustness. But it's more expensive to cast, it requires additional material, it's heavier. . . so these are down sides associated with the cost effective / manufacturing process.

But you're looking more from the performance side, so it's heavier for one, it requires more attention to detail for cooling purposes, has the potential to create hot spots, etc. Another thing to think about is you're still utilizing the less-than-indestructible stock sleeves so there are the inherent issues with that. But again, these are subjective and worth scrutinizing... I'm also no tech pro. I'll pass this question along to the guys at Outfront and see what they say and return

[humfrz]

Nice piece of work!

Well, now, that beats the heck out of filling up the cooling passages with cement .....

Yep, as asked before, what about cooling ...... ??


humfrz

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by RockySDS

That's a good question Stimmed. While there are a multitude of up sides, especially over sleeving a block, the down sides are more controversial.

Closed deck was something that (somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, this is just what I recall) was introduced by Subaru for rally homologation purposes, so it's a process that manufacturers have used in the past. Which tells you a thing about its robustness. But it's more expensive to cast, it requires additional material, it's heavier. . . so these are down sides associated with the cost effective / manufacturing process.

But you're looking more from the performance side, so it's heavier for one, it requires more attention to detail for cooling purposes, has the potential to create hot spots, etc. Another thing to think about is you're still utilizing the less-than-indestructible stock sleeves so there are the inherent issues with that. But again, these are subjective and worth scrutinizing... I'm also no tech pro. I'll pass this question along to the guys at Outfront and see what they say and return

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote there, but closed-deck cylinder blocks predate Subaru... If you are saying that Subaru invented it, the answer is no. If you are saying they introduced the existing concept to their production engines for FIA purposes, then...possibly...? I do not know.

Regardless, the first and only closed-deck Subaru engines I know of are created by pressing and machining a billet sleeve, liner, or combination of the two, into the cast block to close the (otherwise) open deck.

Outfront and other companies have been doing that for years.

The image you posted does not look like the typical examples, however.. I'm curious.

Post more.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by RockySDS

That's a good question Stimmed. While there are a multitude of up sides, especially over sleeving a block, the down sides are more controversial.

Closed deck was something that (somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, this is just what I recall) was introduced by Subaru for rally homologation purposes, so it's a process that manufacturers have used in the past. Which tells you a thing about its robustness. But it's more expensive to cast, it requires additional material, it's heavier. . . so these are down sides associated with the cost effective / manufacturing process.

But you're looking more from the performance side, so it's heavier for one, it requires more attention to detail for cooling purposes, has the potential to create hot spots, etc. Another thing to think about is you're still utilizing the less-than-indestructible stock sleeves so there are the inherent issues with that. But again, these are subjective and worth scrutinizing... I'm also no tech pro. I'll pass this question along to the guys at Outfront and see what they say and return

Ok lets start at the beginning watch the video it answers a lot of your questions
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9r-OE69Ofg"]Outfront Motorsports Closed Deck Block Explained - YouTube[/ame]
The closed deck in which you are referring to the FA20 I have been in the works with Outfront since it was first discussed. They have had my motor for 6 months working on this. Their are 3 as of now being built. you have 1 of those the other is Mine and a friend/ teammate of mine owns the 3rd. They are taking orders but their will be a small wait. This was suppose to be tested by us at TX2K but due to my nephew losing his life in a auto accident, their is a slim chance of us being there. The insert to close the deck is pressed in,(by saying pressed in I am not referring to using 1000's of pounds, maybe pushed would be a better term) its approximately 1 inch(It is not actually a 1 inch plate as I can not give exact dimensions it's proprietary info) thick with the factory cooling ports machined in to the deck. Just like some of the EJ 2.0's from Japan. Hot spot concerns are minimal since 1 this has not been tested yet as you have have 1 of the first built and my team is out of the office. And 2 the "1 inch plate" is billet aluminum surrounded by coolant.
So now let's share what else the block has that hasn't been mentioned yet, the headstuds. With this block you can opt for the 1/2 inch studs for increased holding. Here is another video about that.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3ojh4ZY1c"]Outfront Motorsports Subaru 1/2" Head Studs ARP - YouTube[/ame]


good luck at
TX2K.


I will be releasing updates as we get back to the FT86PROJECT9S car.

[cdrazic93]

well damn.

[texasbound972]

Can't wait for #'s!!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

[FRS Justin]

bare block


This idea was born at the time I originally built my LA Sleeve motor. Since only the BRZ/FRS were using the FA20 the idea was shelved and a new sleeve was invented. Then the WRX came out using a FA20 and production started. This has been in the works for awhile.

[cdrazic93]

so are those or are those not stock sleeves?

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

so are those or are those not stock sleeves?

They are the stock sleeves

[RockySDS]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote there, but closed-deck cylinder blocks predate Subaru... If you are saying that Subaru invented it, the answer is no. If you are saying they introduced the existing concept to their production engines for FIA purposes, then...possibly...? I do not know.

Regardless, the first and only closed-deck Subaru engines I know of are created by pressing and machining a billet sleeve, liner, or combination of the two, into the cast block to close the (otherwise) open deck.

Outfront and other companies have been doing that for years.

The image you posted does not look like the typical examples, however.. I'm curious.

Post more.

You're no doubt right, I'm sure there were many shops doing "closed deck" in some fashion or another, but it's one of those chase your tail things, no matter what I would say where it came from, or where it originated, then I'd be wrong b/c somebody would have something else to say LOL. But it is documented that Subaru was the first to introduce it into their production cars. So there's that. Now there's a ton of work being done, by a handful of different shops for all platforms.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

They are the stock sleeves

well shit while youre in there might as well slide in better sleeves.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

well shit while youre in there might as well slide in better sleeves.

Inserting sleeves could lead to a sleeve dropping. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the factory liners when a closed deck is in place. Now with that being said a factory liner does limit the cc you can bore it out to.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by RockySDS

You're no doubt right, I'm sure there were many shops doing "closed deck" in some fashion or another, but it's one of those chase your tail things, no matter what I would say where it came from, or where it originated, then I'd be wrong b/c somebody would have something else to say LOL. But it is documented that Subaru was the first to introduce it into their production cars. So there's that. Now there's a ton of work being done, by a handful of different shops for all platforms.

You seem to be missing the point. Open deck blocks are a relatively new thing in engine design. The original design of the piston engine was closed deck. Subaru wasn't even a company when the first engines were built, nor for several decades after engines started being mass produced.