SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by SeanRTR

If the exception said 'joint-venture cars that share the same chassis/driveline (Engine/Trans)' can you think of an example of how this screws anything up?
I can't think of any advantages that are unlocked with this wording, but maybe I'm missing something.
Saabaru/WRX wagon - I see no advantage/these cars all blew up and went to SM/ST
Solstice/Sky - ZOK suspension BS Saturn Sky? Who cares, do it.
Firebird/Camaro - WS6 parts on an SS Camaro, Z28 parts on a Formula (not a V6 model) Who cares again, I see no real advantages here either.
Corvette/Caddy and F150/Mustang - ....these are not the same cars.


Yep, who cares, do it. I can't think of a situation where this rule would allow a car any kind of significant performance advantage. Someone tell me what I'm missing.

It's 'spensive to frankenstein a best of all world's car. And, IMO, not in the spirit of the category.

The FR-S and the BRZ need to be on an equal playing field, period. There's too many SCCA members that bought these cars to compete in Street class to let a Toyota document with unfortunate verbiage alienate half of the owners. I think it's a bit ridiculous to see how many BRZ owners have simply bailed because of this minor performance advantage, but the cars should be on the same level of prep.

That's just it. They are. It's the same level playing field that the 350Z, RX-8, NC, ND, and everyone else enjoys. It's called CS.

[NJ10]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

That's just it. They are. It's the same level playing field that the 350Z, RX-8, NC, ND, and everyone else enjoys. It's called CS.

So what you're saying is,

BRZ and FR-S(without TRD) were same level playing field

BRZ and FR-S(with TRD) still the same level playing field

[TMF]

Originally Posted by JimR

Very few people here lack a Nationals jacket because they can't do TRD springs. "Wrong" stuff gets driven up the podium all the time. For me, the lowest hanging fruit is always the driver. I just left the ES pool where a '93 MR2 emerged from the crypt and finished second.

Bingo, quoted for posterity.

Otherwise I feel like we are all beating a dead horse here. If you have a serious concern and want to see a change, write to the SEB: https://www.crbscca.com/

In other news, now that the camber advantage of the Koni's is taken away, I think it makes other double adjustable struts more attractive. What are the other options out there? Penske?

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by TMF

Bingo, quoted for posterity.

Otherwise I feel like we are all beating a dead horse here. If you have a serious concern and want to see a change, write to the SEB: https://www.crbscca.com/

In other news, now that the camber advantage of the Koni's is taken away, I think it makes other double adjustable struts more attractive. What are the other options out there? Penske?

FRSport Double Adjustable Bilsteins...

http://www.frsport.com/index.php?tar...0176ef9a4bfb0b

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by NJ10

So what you're saying is,

BRZ and FR-S(without TRD) were same level playing field

BRZ and FR-S(with TRD) still the same level playing field

Yep. Just not the same players anymore. Kinda like the other non-BRZ/FR-S cars in CS.

Although, they never were the same players in the first place. Spring rate disparity existed long before the TRD mess, and is as valid a reason as any to pick one car over another. And there's a 50-ish pound weight difference between the two as well.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

Yep. Just not the same players anymore. Kinda like the other non-BRZ/FR-S cars in CS.

Although, they never were the same players in the first place. Spring rate disparity existed long before the TRD mess, and is as valid a reason as any to pick one car over another. And there's a 50-ish pound weight difference between the two as well.

Level playing field is a broad term that hides the fact that one is faster than the other. Pretty sure if you give a C-street prepped BRZ to a talented driver like Strano for example and then have him run the course in a TRD prepped FRS that FRS will put up better #s. You have me do the same test and chances are the results will not be obvious/drastic...or maybe they will. However, a lot of people want to know they are driving something that gives them the best shot to be competitive. And as indicative by the results, if a twin is your choice, the BRZ is no longer on the list. Before the TRD update I agree that the BRZ/FRS was a crap shoot and capable of equal results, now though, not so much. There is a reason why ALOT of people ditched their C-street brz's or turned them into STX cars and its not because of 50lbs or the factory spring rates favoring over/under steer lol.

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

Level playing field is a broad term that hides the fact that one is faster than the other. Pretty sure if you give a C-street prepped BRZ to a talented driver like Strano for example and then have him run the course in a TRD prepped FRS that FRS will put up better #s. You have me do the same test and chances are the results will not be obvious/drastic...or maybe they will. However, a lot of people want to know they are driving something that gives them the best shot to be competitive. And as indicative by the results, if a twin is your choice, the BRZ is no longer on the list. Before the TRD update I agree that the BRZ/FRS was a crap shoot and capable of equal results, now though, not so much. There is a reason why ALOT of people ditched their C-street brz's or turned them into STX cars and its not because of 50lbs or the factory spring rates favoring over/under steer lol.

I don't doubt that the TRD FR-S should certainly be faster with everything else remaining the same. But, the difference between a TRD FR-S and a BRZ is no different than it would be with the RX-8, et al. Should those folks get competitive adjustments too?

Street classes, for the most part, never have a "car to have" for long periods of time. Some cars are never the car to have. Some get their competitive life cut short very quickly. That happened to the BRZ, effectively. The FR-S will get theirs, too, before very long. Heck, deliveries on its better may be already underway.

I still don't get why Subaru can't be bothered to offer a similar setup. Wouldn't fix those that have already bought, but it restores the parity we'd all like for cars going forward without having to open a can of worms. I mean, is it some corporate edict that all Subarus exist at rally-x ride height?

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

The FR-S will get theirs, too, before very long. Heck, deliveries on its better may be already underway.

Maybe this year with the ND Miata.

I am betting that if the ND Miata takes CS this year, this conversation will be dropped in a hurry.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

I don't doubt that the TRD FR-S should certainly be faster with everything else remaining the same. But, the difference between a TRD FR-S and a BRZ is no different than it would be with the RX-8, et al. Should those folks get competitive adjustments too?

Street classes, for the most part, never have a "car to have" for long periods of time. Some cars are never the car to have. Some get their competitive life cut short very quickly. That happened to the BRZ, effectively. The FR-S will get theirs, too, before very long. Heck, deliveries on its better may be already underway.

I still don't get why Subaru can't be bothered to offer a similar setup. Wouldn't fix those that have already bought, but it restores the parity we'd all like for cars going forward without having to open a can of worms. I mean, is it some corporate edict that all Subarus exist at rally-x ride height?

Comparing the difference between a TRD FRS and BRZ to the difference between either to lets say an RX-8 is useless. A TRD FRS vs a RX8 is fair game, each car still has strengths and weakness and either car can take it imo depending on the course with equal drivers. The BRZ has ZERO strengths against a TRD FRS, it is simply a handicapped version of the TRD FRS and never has an advantage lol.

[TrqlessWonder]

Obviously, I don't share that view on things. From documentation (insert eyeroll here) the TRD FR-S was a thing from the get-go (another eyeroll for good measure). The BRZ, then, effectively never had a shot, as you might put it. It only hung on until folks discovered the port option thingy.

Ergo, the BRZ is as much the same car from a rulebook standpoint as an RX-8. That is, not the same car. Just another allowed class competitor for which the SEB didn't have a better class to assign it to. That no one knew about the port option thing for the first two+ years is just the effed-up part about it.

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Maybe this year with the ND Miata.

I am betting that if the ND Miata takes CS this year, this conversation will be dropped in a hurry.

I think the ND may well be that car. Sneaking suspicion that the exhibition runs in Lincoln were done with either a trunk full of sand, or got the few prep things they did very wrong.

That might change the tone of the rhetoric. It won't end the conversation, though.

[DocWalt]

I bet the ND would do a lot better at a local style course where it's not constantly shifting or hitting the limiter... but oh well.

[YawMomentRacing]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

I think the ND may well be that car. Sneaking suspicion that the exhibition runs in Lincoln were done with either a trunk full of sand, or got the few prep things they did very wrong.

That might change the tone of the rhetoric. It won't end the conversation, though.

Not sandbagging. No benefit to that in a public marketing exercise and I got not even a hint of that talking to Hollis. My take:

1) They were on the wrong tire. I tested back to back on the Lincoln practice course Bstone vs. BFG and was consistently 0.3-0.4s faster on the Bstones.

2) Not as much development as top cars. My car had a season and Fenter/Harvey 3+. I certainly learned things and got faster throughout the year. That's tough to make up for in one event.

3) I think there is a chance that the car is just not that fast especially on longer, faster courses like the East Course. I certainly don't think it is the new top car to have or a class killer. I think it will be even with the top FR-Ss, NC MX-5, and RX-8s. Just my opinion though, time will tell.

[Shark_Bait88]

In respect to something like autocross, the FR-S and BRZ are fairly different cars in my opinion because of the difference in OE suspension.

With nearly twice the difference between front and rear rates, the FR-S is a much more tail-happy car than the BRZ. Subaru tuned their car to have a somewhat neutral feel, generally causing it to understeer/push a bit more than the FR-S. So they're really cars tuned for drivers with different style.

The rates on the TRD springs are essentially a stiffer version of the stock springs, in terms of the difference between f/r rates. So in my mind adding TRD springs to a BRZ would just make it handle like an FR-S.

Is that something you really want? It may not actually make the car faster if your driving style isn't suited to that sort of tail-happy rear bias suspension tuning. If you were actually looking to give the cars "equal" upgrades it mean being able to put stiffer lowering springs on the BRZ that more closely mirror the suspension characteristics of the stock car, so something with closer to squared off rates.

It seems to me that in the matter of performance/competitive driving, where suspension setup plays a major role, they are actually fairly different cars.