BRZ vs S2000 vs Cayman S (my take)

[SUB-FT86]

One of the best reads ever. And I like your taste in all the cars you've owned. I too want to own a Cayman one day as I think it's the next step to the 86. Some might think a fat heavy v8 muscle car is the next step to our cars but I beg to differ on the chassis side of the equation.

[Agent 86]

Can you lucky Porsche owners speak to cost for regularly scheduled maintenance, performing your own maintenance (oil change, brake pads etc.), and general user modifications/upgrades like those we perform on our Twins?

One of the things I love most about my BRZ is the ability to work on it myself.

The Cayman is still my dream car (within financial reach). I used to lust after the 911 Turbo, but that's never going to happen.

I was reading the post of a Cayman owner on Autoblog, and his characterization of the cost of ownership scared me.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Agent 86

Can you lucky Porsche owners speak to cost for regularly scheduled maintenance, performing your own maintenance (oil change, brake pads etc.), and general user modifications/upgrades like those we perform on our Twins?

One of the things I love most about my BRZ is the ability to work on it myself.

The Cayman is still my dream car (within financial reach). I used to lust after the 911 Turbo, but that's never going to happen.

I was reading the post of a Cayman owner on Autoblog, and his characterization of the cost of ownership scared me.

My parents have one. While in warranty, you have to take it to the dealer to do maintenance or the warranty is void, so you get gouged for a few years. Oil change costs a bit more because it takes 10 quarts instead of 5? Anything engine related is going to be expensive as it's hard to access, but those are infrequent so as a lifetime cost it's not that bad.

If you have a pre 981 model, the I hear the power steering pump tends to explode at high rpm. I would toss that out and put in an electric pump. Carbon deposits on the valves is probably an issue but that happens on lots of cars. The direct injectors on the twins go bad too...

I think as a proportion of the car's cost, it's not that bad, minus brakes and tires, which you'll be consuming quickly if you do autoX/track day. It can definitely be a DD, but you want to be careful about parking it in a safe place. I think a base model without the interior bells and whistles is really good value at 50k new, because it is simultaneously very comfortable/luxurious and fun to drive.

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by Agent 86

Can you lucky Porsche owners speak to cost for regularly scheduled maintenance, performing your own maintenance (oil change, brake pads etc.), and general user modifications/upgrades like those we perform on our Twins?

One of the things I love most about my BRZ is the ability to work on it myself.

The Cayman is still my dream car (within financial reach). I used to lust after the 911 Turbo, but that's never going to happen.

I was reading the post of a Cayman owner on Autoblog, and his characterization of the cost of ownership scared me.

So my experience (which may differ to those who actually bought a Porsche, and not sure how different SA is to the USA either!)...

I loved the 86 when it came out, but went and looked at Boxsters (and Caymans) before buying.
A few things put me off buying a second-hand Porsched over the 86.

1) The Porsche dealers here automatically void any warranty if you work on the car yourself, and their services are expensive (or the motorplan is expensive).

2) The cost of consumables like tyres, brakes, oils, filters etc was MUCH higher... the cost of an oil filter for e.g. was 3x the price of Toyota's

3) Insurance costs were much more.

4) At the time I was driving a pretty unique car... the 86 had just come out and I was one of a few who had one delivered early. Might not be as unique now, but believe it or not there are still far less of them on the road than Boxsters/Caymans here.


Of course things like working on the car yourself are easier on the 86 too.

But final, winning decision for me... If I spend the same cash on both cars I'd have a much more unique (individualised) Toyota/Scion/Subaru - with SC, wheels, etc that would be close to the Porsche's performance... or I could have a bog stock Porsche. Uniqueness won in the end!

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

My parents have one. While in warranty, you have to take it to the dealer to do maintenance or the warranty is void, so you get gouged for a few years. Oil change costs a bit more because it takes 10 quarts instead of 5? Anything engine related is going to be expensive as it's hard to access, but those are infrequent so as a lifetime cost it's not that bad.

If you have a pre 981 model, the I hear the power steering pump tends to explode at high rpm. I would toss that out and put in an electric pump. Carbon deposits on the valves is probably an issue but that happens on lots of cars. The direct injectors on the twins go bad too...

I think as a proportion of the car's cost, it's not that bad, minus brakes and tires, which you'll be consuming quickly if you do autoX/track day. It can definitely be a DD, but you want to be careful about parking it in a safe place. I think a base model without the interior bells and whistles is really good value at 50k new, because it is simultaneously very comfortable/luxurious and fun to drive.

1) I'm pretty sure that's illegal in the US. An automaker cannot force the consumer to only have the vehicle serviced at a dealership.
2) I've never heard of that being an issue, and I frequent Planet-9 quite often. Please provide a source; I'm curious.
3) Brake pads are not considerably more expensive for a Cayman S over a BRZ or S2000. In the past I've used CarboTech as my pad of choice for track days. A set of pads for the CS is about 10% more expensive than an S2000/BRZ, and the Porsche's fixed caliper brake design will allow for greater pad life than that with a floating caliper design (more even distribution of force).

Originally Posted by 86 South Africa

So my experience (which may differ to those who actually bought a Porsche, and not sure how different SA is to the USA either!)...

I loved the 86 when it came out, but went and looked at Boxsters (and Caymans) before buying.
A few things put me off buying a second-hand Porsched over the 86.

1) The Porsche dealers here automatically void any warranty if you work on the car yourself, and their services are expensive (or the motorplan is expensive).

2) The cost of consumables like tyres, brakes, oils, filters etc was MUCH higher... the cost of an oil filter for e.g. was 3x the price of Toyota's

3) Insurance costs were much more.

The cost of oil for the Cayman is no higher than the BRZ. You can buy it for the same price, BRZ or Cayman at Walmart. However the Cayman requires more of it so there is an additional cost. An OEM oil filter is $25, but there are aftermarket filters available for $8. Highly doubt you can find a Toyota oil filter for under $3.

Working on the engine of a Cayman can actually be quite easy. Both the front and top engine covers can be removed (less than 30 minutes each) with some simple interior trim tools that you can buy from Porsche ($15). With them removed the engine is sitting right there, without a radiator, steering or braking equipment in place to block access. And of course you can also access the engine from below (I changed the spark plugs through access in the wheel wells.

Yes, maintenance of a Porsche is higher than that of a Scooby - esp one with a factory warranty. But if you do most of the work yourself and purchase your OEM parts from wholesalers (very easy to do) it's not considerably more expensive.

And mentioning auto insurance is just asking for trouble. There are too many variables at play for whomever is being insured to accurately say that insurance will always cost a lot more. Personally my insurance cost went down a pittance ($8/year) when I switched from the BRZ to the Cayman S.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

One of the best reads ever. And I like your taste in all the cars you've owned. I too want to own a Cayman one day as I think it's the next step to the 86. Some might think a fat heavy v8 muscle car is the next step to our cars but I beg to differ on the chassis side of the equation.

And a sincere thanks to you.

Its nice to know I've been helpful to others.

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

1) I'm pretty sure that's illegal in the US. An automaker cannot force the consumer to only have the vehicle serviced at a dealership.
2) I've never heard of that being an issue, and I frequent Planet-9 quite often. Please provide a source; I'm curious.
3) Brake pads are not considerably more expensive for a Cayman S over a BRZ or S2000. In the past I've used CarboTech as my pad of choice for track days. A set of pads for the CS is about 10% more expensive than an S2000/BRZ, and the Porsche's fixed caliper brake design will allow for greater pad life than that with a floating caliper design (more even distribution of force).



The cost of oil for the Cayman is no higher than the BRZ. You can buy it for the same price, BRZ or Cayman at Walmart. However the Cayman requires more of it so there is an additional cost. An OEM oil filter is $25, but there are aftermarket filters available for $8. Highly doubt you can find a Toyota oil filter for under $3.

Working on the engine of a Cayman can actually be quite easy. Both the front and top engine covers can be removed (less than 30 minutes each) with some simple interior trim tools that you can buy from Porsche ($15). With them removed the engine is sitting right there, without a radiator, steering or braking equipment in place to block access. And of course you can also access the engine from below (I changed the spark plugs through access in the wheel wells.

Yes, maintenance of a Porsche is higher than that of a Scooby - esp one with a factory warranty. But if you do most of the work yourself and purchase your OEM parts from wholesalers (very easy to do) it's not considerably more expensive.

And mentioning auto insurance is just asking for trouble. There are too many variables at play for whomever is being insured to accurately say that insurance will always cost a lot more. Personally my insurance cost went down a pittance ($8/year) when I switched from the BRZ to the Cayman S.

Hey man,

I'm not denying the Cayman is a great car, but from my experience/my country it's much more expensive to buy and to own. I'd love one, but when I look at bang-for-buck I really think the FR-s/86/BRZ is amazing.
For around 50% of the price (again, South African prices) I can have a car with a SC, headers, wheels and a few other bits to make it unique and almost as fast, plus be cheaper to run.

You can service the Porsche wherever you want here, but Porsche SA then voids the warranty and you lose on the resale (I've heard that they often refuse to trade these cars in/offer very low values compared to "officially" serviced cars).

Comparing costs in $ vs our Rand is not easy because of exchange rates and the like... but it's more expensive here - I know cos of my own research locally. Same for insurance... the US market is much bigger and probably more competitive than ours.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

1) I'm pretty sure that's illegal in the US. An automaker cannot force the consumer to only have the vehicle serviced at a dealership.
2) I've never heard of that being an issue, and I frequent Planet-9 quite often. Please provide a source; I'm curious.
3) Brake pads are not considerably more expensive for a Cayman S over a BRZ or S2000. In the past I've used CarboTech as my pad of choice for track days. A set of pads for the CS is about 10% more expensive than an S2000/BRZ, and the Porsche's fixed caliper brake design will allow for greater pad life than that with a floating caliper design (more even distribution of force).

Working on the engine of a Cayman can actually be quite easy. Both the front and top engine covers can be removed (less than 30 minutes each) with some simple interior trim tools that you can buy from Porsche ($15). With them removed the engine is sitting right there, without a radiator, steering or braking equipment in place to block access. And of course you can also access the engine from below (I changed the spark plugs through access in the wheel wells.

1. Oh, maybe my mother mistakenly thought that was the case.
2. Can't seem to find it anymore. I swore I saw a lot of people complaining about it when I was reading about Porsches. I hate belt driven PS anyways, it wastes a lot of horsepower and you need to have super long lines going from the engine to the rack in a midengine car.
3. Good point. I was thinking the rotors might be expensive though. That said, the stock Boxster/Cayman rotors are just plain cast rotors, so I bet you can get them pretty cheap.

I didn't know you could access the engine from inside the car like that, good to know.

[WolfpackS2k]

The OEM rotors are pretty beefy. Not crazy big, 298 mm diameter, but are 24 mm wide so overall they're quite stout. Depending on where you buy them, they can be purchased for roughly $300-350.

Carbon Ceramic rotors were an option, but are pretty rare and not desirable since their replacement is $9000/pair. Yeah, that's not a typo.

[ScoobsMcGee]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

The OEM rotors are pretty beefy. Not crazy big, 298 mm diameter, but are 24 mm wide so overall they're quite stout. Depending on where you buy them, they can be purchased for roughly $300-350.

Carbon Ceramic rotors were an option, but are pretty rare and not desirable since their replacement is $9000/pair. Yeah, that's not a typo.

So find a car with carbon ceramic rotors in good condition. Take them off and sell them at a reasonable price. Buy OEM rotors with whatever supporting hardware you need and still have enough left over for a half dozen replacements.

[RichardsFRS]

Why are there comparisons of a 200 hp sports coupe to a near 400 hp exotic? I don't get it. Why not compare Cayman to a Vette? Oh yea thers no comparison. Just seems like apples and oranges to me

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by RichardsFRS

Why are there comparisons of a 200 hp sports coupe to a near 400 hp exotic? I don't get it. Why not compare Cayman to a Vette? Oh yea thers no comparison. Just seems like apples and oranges to me

Which exotic car are you referring to?

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by RichardsFRS

Why are there comparisons of a 200 hp sports coupe to a near 400 hp exotic? I don't get it. Why not compare Cayman to a Vette? Oh yea thers no comparison. Just seems like apples and oranges to me

The cayman has less than 300 hp, and can be had used for the same price as a new 86.

[WolfpackS2k]

Exactly.

Did RichardsFRS even read the original post?