Aftermarket suspension making handling worse?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Calum

Wait, did you think I was defending the stance and stretch is sporty crowed? Im trying to say two things, first belittling someone isn't going to cause them to do research. It's going to make them defensive and make them do anything to prove themself, even if it's wrong. Secondly, there is room for those that aren't worried about lap times but still ENJOY modifying their cars. Some mod for the joy of the time card, some mod for the joy of driving, and some mod for the joy of fashion.

Theres nothing wrong with any of those goals as long as the person is true to themselves and recognizes what their true goal is. If they do understand that then what's wrong with giving advice centered around their goals instead of the advisors goals?

No.

I was just emphasizing the frustration that can lead to 'Just leave your car alone, fool!' posts.

In all honesty we may be somewhat responsible. Maybe people feel pressured to come up with performance justification, when all they want is a look? Still annoying as hell...

As for the advice, it is often ignored because it is given based on their pretext of performance when the unspoken reality is fashion. This leads to the rift.

Not saying cosmetic mods are wrong or bad. But trying to pass them off as something else does no one any good.

[yuli8466]

Originally Posted by armythug

I think that I will just stay stock for a good while and actually learn more about what Im getting from Toyota(stock). And then when I have a better understanding about various upgrades, I'll be better informed to make a more accurate purchase.

Yes, I agreed.

To most people, I think we can learn a lot from stock settings of BRZ/86.

Just try to understand why the engineers make such.

Of course, the car still has compromise, but, it has delights more.

[#87]

IMO the point of this car and bulk of $ invested was the handling. So to go aftermarket would require a large sum of money to make better than stock. I bought this car because I wanted a car that handled well in stock form for primarily street driving. I think the amount of time and $ to try and improve would be pointless for me.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Calum

Im trying to say two things, first belittling someone isn't going to cause them to do research. It's going to make them defensive and make them do anything to prove themself, even if it's wrong.

You're too kind to people on the intarnats.

[Archer1.8]

I love people who buy $1000-$3000 coilovers just so they con lower their car.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Calum

I hope you enjoy frustration, because that's all your approach is going bring you.

He has a point though. It's something I've preached in the past in the ITR world as well. I don't have enough experience with this car yet to say the same though.

[#87]

Encourage those people to buy aftermarket parts, giving the companies revenue for more development is what we need. If someone buys a part with the wrong idea behind it, it's up to them to do the research and know what they are getting into.

[Draco-REX]

I think one problem is that most people see suspension modding like power modding. Getting more power from an engine is relatively simple. Bolt on an intake and exhaust and you get more power. If it's a turbo, get a tune and you get even more power. Piece of cake. The only trade off is reliability and mileage. And as long as the engine doesn't blow in the next year or so, it's considered "reliable" so that's not much of a trade-off.

Suspension tuning on the other hand is MUCH more complex, which is one reason why I enjoy it more than power modding. There is so much to take into consideration when you change one part that if you're not careful you'll make the car worse. Those drivers that have slammed cars on coilovers which bounce across the road have some of the worst handling cars out there, but they think they have the best.

I wish I could make my own parts, but that's just not possible. So to add to the challenge of properly tuning a suspension, part selection becomes part of the equasion. Springs from company X are not the same as springs from company Y. And just because a bunch of people say that $1000 set of Coilover Zs are good, it doesn't mean they actually are.

And then as a cherry on top, ALL of this has to be put into a frame of context based on what kind of driving the car is going to be doing. An AutoX suspension is not ideal for Track Days. A Track Day suspension is not ideal for a Canyon Carver. etc.. Where should you draw the line between geometry and CG height? Does your application call for roll stiffness to come from the springs or sway bars? Questions like this need to be asked when tuning a suspension.

I love it.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

You're too kind to people on the intarnats.

Being unkind just gets you ignored though. And eventually it wears on you. I understand, I do. I hate plug and play HID kits without a proper projector retrofit, but people love them and swear they're the bees knees! I'm not going to change their mind, evidence or not.

So anyway, what you're telling me is that a bagged 5" drop with 4 degrees of negative camber and the frame scraping the asphalt is a bad setup?

I also think that a lot of people think that since they're spending a grand on coilovers that they must be amazing. They don't see the whole picture, that a really high quality set of coilovers, along with supporting suspension mods if you choose to go that way, will probably run 4 or 5 grand. A thousand bucks for coils is cheap.

But if someone just wants to slam and stance their car, so be it. They don't have to be doing it for marketing reasons or peer pressure. They might just like it that way.

[catharsis]

suspension modding is a whole different beast that most people don't do right. Most of the japanese brand coil overs are also crap and all made by the same company. A really nice high quality suspension that is made for the weekend warrior should actually offer the same amount of comfort on the streets, and also added performance on the track. However you'll also need the suspension to be dialed in properly for all that to come together. A good brand would be for example. ohlins, moton, etc.

[Koji_Online]

This explanation is perfect; should be stickied as ultimate answer for this thread =D

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

I think one problem is that most people see suspension modding like power modding. Getting more power from an engine is relatively simple. Bolt on an intake and exhaust and you get more power. If it's a turbo, get a tune and you get even more power. Piece of cake. The only trade off is reliability and mileage. And as long as the engine doesn't blow in the next year or so, it's considered "reliable" so that's not much of a trade-off.

Suspension tuning on the other hand is MUCH more complex, which is one reason why I enjoy it more than power modding. There is so much to take into consideration when you change one part that if you're not careful you'll make the car worse. Those drivers that have slammed cars on coilovers which bounce across the road have some of the worst handling cars out there, but they think they have the best.

I wish I could make my own parts, but that's just not possible. So to add to the challenge of properly tuning a suspension, part selection becomes part of the equasion. Springs from company X are not the same as springs from company Y. And just because a bunch of people say that $1000 set of Coilover Zs are good, it doesn't mean they actually are.

And then as a cherry on top, ALL of this has to be put into a frame of context based on what kind of driving the car is going to be doing. An AutoX suspension is not ideal for Track Days. A Track Day suspension is not ideal for a Canyon Carver. etc.. Where should you draw the line between geometry and CG height? Does your application call for roll stiffness to come from the springs or sway bars? Questions like this need to be asked when tuning a suspension.

I love it.

[RaceR]

Many good replies in this thread..

Originally Posted by 7thgear

mods are for racing

if anyone doubts the ability of a stock car, show up to any auto-slalom or time attack event, and find that guy (or girl) thats bombing around the track in a bone stock car and doing reasonably well.

go out for a ride along with that person

then when you get your mind blown by the awesomeness you just experienced realize driving on the street is 10% of what you just witnessed, and ask yourself why in the world you would dump money into your car beyond the essentials (tires, brakes, maintenance components)

I totally agree in what you are saying here!
The most talented driver at my local (Autox) track drives a stock E30 325I (170hp) without LSD. Only mod is some cheapo ebay lowering springs (not kidding!). He competes against heavily modified cars like Opel speedster, Lotus Exige and many different highly modified cars.
(For the record he is a 7 times Norwegian champion driving a stock Ford Fiesta in the non modified clas. Atleast he used to drive that car.)

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

And just because a bunch of people say that $1000 set of Coilover Zs are good, it doesn't mean they actually are.

yeah.. But same can be said about many of the expensive ones..
I have a hard time trusting people who would recommend those as well.

That is the main problem with coilovers. How can you be sure you get value for your money not only in quality, but also in terms of handling and balance. Most people buying coilovers do not care about that. They only seem to want a lower and hopefully better performing car.

Yes, you could buy a fully adjustable kit, but then you also risk messing up the handling in pursuit of the good setup. Finding that setup would take time..
Several good and well respected drivers I know of have advised people not to buy those sorts of fully adjustable coilovers. Mainly because you pay much more, and most likely you will not be able to get more out of them. You risk messing up the setup, and most likely you will not bother adjusting them back and forth for every track-day/autoX you attend trough the year. Also, you would adjust back and forth for the winter too if going for optimal handling trough out the year. I know I would not bother with all those adjustments. And neither would the people I have spoken to do.
And that will easily make the extra money you had to pay for them pointless.

Most likely I will not pay that much attention to what the average forum member thinks about his aftermarket suspension.
Why you may ask.
1. Different preferences
2. Different driving style
3. Most people only try out one set of coilovers. And they all recommend that set to others. Especially if it is expensive. Because then it has to be good, right?... :p

The only test/show/person I would trust would be if BM had their touge tuner test in the GT86 with keiichi tsuchia.
Give me the handling characteristics of his AE86 on the GT86 and we might have a winner from my point of view.. His AE86 looks like so much fun, and its fast! .. probably a bit too hard tough..

Hopefully there will be a little community in Norway over the years making it possible for me to try out several cars with different aftermarket suspension setups. That way I could make my own opinion.
Until then. Stock is win!





[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8HGbIbcuFo"]Touge Showdown 3 - Hot Version International - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4UQ8OsF2dM"]Touge Showdown 200 (Season 2) - Hot Version International - YouTube[/ame]

AE86 from 6.30 seems to be pretty nice in the handling..Easy to drive, playful, fast and with decent comfort over bumps...

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by RaceR

yeah.. But same can be said about many of the expensive ones..
I have a hard time trusting people who would recommend those as well.

Absolutely. Which is why you don't pay attention to anecdotes and pay attention to shock dynos, and past performance of the brand. There are brands that are a safe bet. Then it's a matter of selecting the proper spring rates and ordering them from a company that will look at your preferred rates and recommending the valving you need. RaceComp Engineering is great for this.

But I also agree that 99% of the people who buy coilovers don't need them.

[Kimsey47]

So, say you just want to get the car lowered an inch to make it "appear" better with larger wheels... Just get lowering springs with a similar rate as the stock? I don't want to make things worse to get a look I want, but I want the look! HAHA