Eneos 75w-90 Oil for MT

[chaoskaze]

Thank you, now I get it. I just don't know why you are so ansty about it... but thank you nonetheless Sensei. /bow

[PunX]

Yeah, although - i have spent 2 years of pondering on this all(about MT oil) and have experience with varios oils over extended period hot and cold. Manual specs for GL3 oil and every oil i have tried has been either GL4 or similar exceeding properties of GL5. Now i was suggested by Bardahl that i should use their oil with their additive and i did try it, is was nice but sadly in winter with -20C, failed with grinds. Currently i'm running second time with pentosin, can't say i'm happy but i do feel much more confident than with any other before. Also i got to try out with ATF fluid, i thought its safe for short period and it was thicker than pentosin - and god there was a difference(it was winter period). Gear lever was like a radio button going click and click into every gear. so having all this experience(and i must stress out, no scientific background on fluid dynamics) i start to feel that one and only major difference between specced GL3 and every other oil on the market is actually EP additives. Reading Wiki or any other book on oil classification also implies to that. This also goes very much with characteristics of ATF. Also Honda(guess what, also Jap car with no diff in gearbox - at least some of them) guys debate about all the time - which is right, 10W30 motor oil or honda MTF fluid. many say, runs smoother with motor oil but don't dare to track with motor oil. again difference there? gear oil certainly has much much greater amount of EP additives mixed into, because of splash type lubrication that engine doesn't have, engine should be good with constant film thickness in a constant flow.
Now reading any, and i do mean ANY datasheet of any oil(especially MOTUL oils, that are really good stuff) you'll see that great deal of EP additives advertised, as well from surveys, 78% of mechanics put extra EP additives when changing your oil.
I don't think syncros of our cars are weak, they just are not designed to have extremely strong oil film. I don't know what i'm going to do next with my MT oil, but until then - Drive like you stole it!

Please, feel free to share thoughts on that, i would love to know second opinions about my logic, maybe i'm flawed

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by PunX

but sadly in winter with -20C, failed with grinds.

This proves my point of how thickness can reduce the synchro's ability to "grip" the cone of gearset and retard its motion leading to a grind.

Originally Posted by PunX

Also Honda(guess what, also Jap car with no diff in gearbox - at least some of them) guys debate about all the time - which is right, 10W30 motor oil or honda MTF fluid. many say, runs smoother with motor oil but don't dare to track with motor oil. again difference there? gear oil certainly has much much greater amount of EP additives mixed into, because of splash type lubrication that engine doesn't have, engine should be good with constant film thickness in a constant flow.

The s2000 is an Aisin transmission like ours it stands to reason that the lubrication requirements as dictated by Honda for the S2000 (aka a thin fluid like Honda MTF) are applicable to our Trans. We know this to be true.

Secondly, a 10w-30 isn't wise because..and you said it..additives. Even in Honda manuals it says that 10w-30 motor oil can be used "in an emergency but only for a short duration". (paraphrasing). Some 10w-30 motor oils would be better suited in the transmission than others like those high in moly and zddp but none will be as good as a proper MTF.

Interesting thing about FWD... FWD MTs have their Diff inside the gearbox and because of this, where the Pinion gear (part of the countershaft) contacts the Ring Gear, the principle of film strength and EP additives becomes very important. So the balance between thinness, film strength and additives a fine one because it has to be strong enough to withstand the pressures between the pinion teeth and the ring gear while also allowing the synchros enough friction to engage the gear cone. In the RWD application of our car and the S2000, the "balance" isn't quite as fine, but nonetheless there's still a balance.

Originally Posted by PunX

I don't think syncros of our cars are weak, they just are not designed to have extremely strong oil film.

Synchros are a pretty common design and functional application. I posit that going with an oil with less film strength is not the right direction, but instead choosing an oil with the proper viscosity and additive package where it's high film strength protects the gears and bearings but it's thinness allows the synchros to "grap" the gear cone. If that makes sense.

Originally Posted by PunX

I don't know what i'm going to do next with my MT oil

It hasn't been mentioned on this board because there's not a lot of Honda folks here but FWIW, the next oil going in my transmission is TORCO MTF. It's very well known in the Honda racing community and works very well for daily driven S2000's that are tracked a lot.

[PunX]

I do get all the points, and i really fancy torco MTF idea after little googling. But there are some concerns as well for me.
first, in US market it's rated GL5 oil, in international(and Europe) market as GL4 oil - strange. There are people who point out that it's brass safe although manufacturer doesn't imply to that. and i may be wrong but S2000 doesn't have brass in gearbox?
another thing, it looks a little thicker than pentosin MTF, not a bad thing but pour point -20C sounds like a track only or summer driven cars. i live in climate lot like northern Canada and this temp is easy to reach within winter.
But please, once you have tried it out, don't keep us guessing, put up a good review of it. I'd be thrilled to read it (Y)

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by PunX

I do get all the points, and i really fancy torco MTF idea after little googling. But there are some concerns as well for me.
first, in US market it's rated GL5 oil, in international(and Europe) market as GL4 oil - strange. There are people who point out that it's brass safe although manufacturer doesn't imply to that. and i may be wrong but S2000 doesn't have brass in gearbox?
another thing, it looks a little thicker than pentosin MTF, not a bad thing but pour point -20C sounds like a track only or summer driven cars. i live in climate lot like northern Canada and this temp is easy to reach within winter.
But please, once you have tried it out, don't keep us guessing, put up a good review of it. I'd be thrilled to read it (Y)

This should help
http://www.teammfactory.com/articles_gear-oil
http://www.torcousa.com/technology/MTF.pdf
It's OK that it's a tad thicker than Pentosin because it's the difference of 7.7 (pentosin) and 8.35 (Torco MTF). So it's a very small difference but I can see that due to your geographical location, you may want to opt for the thinner of the two.

I run the Mfactory Final Drive (last 4 years) and just upgraded to the Mfactory metal plate LSD in the Honda race car and ditched the Torsen I had. I used Pennzoil Synchromech in my race car for the last 4 racing season but I'm switching to Torco because of the expensive Diff. And when a manufacturer recommends a fluid, it's pretty wise to follow that.

Mfactory exclusively recommends Torco because of how compatible it is with Honda transmissions, specifically Brass, EP and cSt, as well as their performance parts. In the Honda racing community (FWD and S2000's alike) the Torco is massively popular and a preferred option.

In cars with high HP or very high Ambient temps some racers are mixing the MTF (thin) with the RTF (thick) to bring up the cSt of the fluid to account for extremely hot oil temp (~300F)!

In April I'm going to change the FRS engine oil so I'll change the transmission oil too at that point and report back. I'll also be testing the race car in April so I'll be able to see it in action under a high heat, high stress environment.

[Albaro08]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

Sorry to dig up a fossil thread, but actually I'm using Eneos as well & love it. Eneos did say it's safe for synchro on their site & I research a bit seem to be yellow metal friendly.

Anyone mind explain to me how gear oil rated in GL5 is bad idea in ur transmission??

Still on the eneos and how's it been thinking of going with it real soon for my put away tune up before winter hits

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[chaoskaze]

I changed mine already since I'm pass 25k mile. :p (rice_classic scared me so i changed early) right now I'm using the motul everyone praised about. I think Motul is so smooth that you lost a lot feel, like too much butter on top of cheese... Lol

During the time I had it, I think it's really nice. It retains lots of that feel from stock while being smooth.

one thing that I know now & i don't before is that. WAKO's & Zero sport Gear oil for toyota 86 are both GL5 oil. (most popular gear oil for 86 in japan)

[Albaro08]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

I changed mine already since I'm pass 25k mile. :p (rice_classic scared me so i changed early) right now I'm using the motul everyone praised about. I think Motul is so smooth that you lost a lot feel, like too much butter on top of cheese... Lol

During the time I had it, I think it's really nice. It retains lots of that feel from stock while being smooth.

one thing that I know now & i don't before is that. WAKO's & Zero sport Gear oil for toyota 86 are both GL5 oil. (most popular gear oil for 86 in japan)

So motul ok I'll check it

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[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by Albaro08

So motul ok I'll check it

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When I said "During the time I had it, I think it's really nice. It retains lots of that feel from stock while being smooth."

That's me talking about Eneos, Mutol is the one that's like too much butter.

[Albaro08]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

When I said "During the time I had it, I think it's really nice. It retains lots of that feel from stock while being smooth."

That's me talking about Eneos, Mutol is the one that's like too much butter.

Ok yea is butter good or bad becuase I know if it's to smooth you'll grind becuase the viscosity breaks down but if it's good butter I'll go with motul

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[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by Albaro08

Ok yea is butter good or bad becuase I know if it's to smooth you'll grind becuase the viscosity breaks down but if it's good butter I'll go with motul

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It's good butter, it makes the transmission so obedient you won't believe the difference if transmission is new.
I can rev match into first easily after I got motul.


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[Albaro08]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

It's good butter, it makes the transmission so obedient you won't believe the difference if transmission is new.
I can rev match into first easily after I got motul.


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Nice so now I know what I'll jump into too

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