Double-Clutching - Stupid Question Alert

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by ls1ac

ok, I can not stand it.
sorry about the length but it just kept coming.

Thanks for picking up that one. I feel like a broken record and just gave up.

[gravitylover]

I had a 1981 Ford Courier that didn't care whether I used the clutch or not. It would slide in and out of gear so smoothly it was weird. Every now and then I had to use the clutch from a stop but usually only if I was pointing uphill, flat or down was a no brainer. Drove it that way for a few years before I retired the truck.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by gravitylover

I had a 1981 Ford Courier that didn't care whether I used the clutch or not. It would slide in and out of gear so smoothly it was weird. Every now and then I had to use the clutch from a stop but usually only if I was pointing uphill, flat or down was a no brainer. Drove it that way for a few years before I retired the truck.

Big heavy-duty transmission, super low first gear, a little extra driveline slop... I can easily picture it.

[gravitylover]

No that was the small pickup, same as the Mazda B2000, ~2 liter 4 cylinder with a 5 speed. Heheh, plenty of driveline slop that's for sure. It was a Grand County (UT) truck that had been bounced around the roads in the Moab area for well over 200k miles. I used a vice grip on the stubs sticking out of the doors to open the windows and couldn't have a header card because you had to reach into the door and pull the rod to open it from the inside. I drove it cross country that way twice! It was a little rough when the heat didn't work crossing the Rockies and Sierras in January/February but I lived

[pantdino]

Double clutching prevents the "click" (or grinding, depending on severity) you hear when you move the gear lever into the lower gear while the clutch is still depressed.


Rev matching prevents the shock to the driveline and possible upset to the balance of the car when the clutch is let out. Double clutching prevents that also because the engine speed is also brought up.

[Justin.b]

Considering how damn weak the clutches and throw out bearings are on these cars, I'd rather not use it twice as much for no benefit.

Generally, if they said it in a Fast and Furious movie it's something you should disregard in real life.

-Justin

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

Considering how damn weak the clutches and throw out bearings are on these cars, I'd rather not use it twice as much for no benefit.

Generally, if they said it in a Fast and Furious movie it's something you should disregard in real life.

-Justin

synchro failure > ($$+) > TOB failure

[Cedars]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

Considering how damn weak the clutches and throw out bearings are on these cars, I'd rather not use it twice as much for no benefit.

Generally, if they said it in a Fast and Furious movie it's something you should disregard in real life.

-Justin

I've been reading this thread and thinking why would anyone try to shift gears without stepping on the clutch unless it was a total emergency like the clutch not working and you'd just robbed a bank and needed to make a getaway

If you shift gears without clutching you're liable to damage the gear and the clutch or at least shorten the lifetime of either or both. Personally, I drive the car hard but also stick to the basics " not letting the RPM go too far up, making sure it's maintained on time, and most definitely never try to change gears without a clutch" it's handy to know about this in an emergency but I just can't do that to a car.

[PureShield]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Then don't learn how to do it if you think it's dumb. On the other hand, if your clutch ever fails you, you'll need a tow truck while the rest of us who took the time to learn this technique will just drive home. The other reason to learn to shift w/out it, as already alluded to earlier in this thread, is that it HELPS your clutch and shifting technique; it forces you to rev match precisely (which you should always strive to do prior to releasing the clutch anyway), which fewer and fewer people seem to do with any real care these days.

IMHO, your opinion mirrors those musicians who feel they don't have to learn their scales and arpeggios; they just want to learn the music they want to learn. BS. A consummate musician knows his instrument inside and outside and it becomes an extension of his self. Good writers command a large vocabulary, whether they use it constantly or not, to better enable them to express subtle thoughts and ideas with pinpoint accuracy and effectiveness. A good driver should likewise be as familiar with his car.

On the other hand, maybe that's a dumb idea.

Best to you,

Barry

I agree that one should know everything that there is to know about their car. It just seems pretty hardcore considering 80% of manual car drivers don't even know how to heel and toe. I guess I would learn how to do it or any other advanced skill with a manual but I would certainly not learn how to do it on my baby.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by PureShield

I agree that one should know everything that there is to know about their car. It just seems pretty hardcore considering 80% of manual car drivers don't even know how to heel and toe. I guess I would learn how to do it or any other advanced skill with a manual but I would certainly not learn how to do it on my baby.

"Back in the day" clutch cable failure was commonplace. My dad didn't heel-toe but he did teach me how to shift without a clutch by the time I was 12. Nothing hardcore about it. Want to learn how? Go for it. Don't want to? Fine.

Personally, I'd rather limp "my baby" home than hand it over to a cigar-chewing tow truck driver, but maybe that's just me.

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

synchro failure > ($$+) > TOB failure

The difference is not enough to get me to double-clutch a transmission with synchros for the entire life of the car.

-Justin

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by Cedars

I've been reading this thread and thinking why would anyone try to shift gears without stepping on the clutch unless it was a total emergency like the clutch not working and you'd just robbed a bank and needed to make a getaway

If you shift gears without clutching you're liable to damage the gear and the clutch or at least shorten the lifetime of either or both. Personally, I drive the car hard but also stick to the basics " not letting the RPM go too far up, making sure it's maintained on time, and most definitely never try to change gears without a clutch" it's handy to know about this in an emergency but I just can't do that to a car.

I'm not against using the clutch to shift, just don't see the point of double-clutching.

-Justin

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by PureShield

I agree that one should know everything that there is to know about their car. It just seems pretty hardcore considering 80% of manual car drivers don't even know how to heel and toe. I guess I would learn how to do it or any other advanced skill with a manual but I would certainly not learn how to do it on my baby.

I understand your thoughts, but, respectfully, I don't think you have a clear idea of what shifting w/out the clutch feels like or the process. It seems as if you picture simply forcing the shifter into the next gear, grinding a few pounds of metal shavings in the process. Does the possibility of grinding exist? Sure.. it exists if you shift poorly, aggressively, and without any feel. It exists even if you use the clutch and you force the shift, miss the gear, or aren't fully in gear.

Before some folks continue to propagate the idea that shifting w/out the clutch is some magic, wizard-skill-like ability only within the grasp of really old people who grew up around nothing but manual transmissions, or only the province of dedicated mechanics and drivers of all ages who practice daily for hours, just try it. There's NOTHING to it... Here, I'll break it down.


We're going to shift from third gear to fourth gear while accelerating. I chose that because it's the easiest one to do, usually; it's a straight shift front to back, and the revs tend to match on their own almost.

Ready?

1. Accelerate as usual (no need to "launch".. just drive calmly) from a stop in 1st gear, through second and third as you usually do.

2. In third gear, continue to accelerate until the revs reach at least 3000, just to give you a good cushion for the next step. Obviously, make sure you've chosen a road where this does not take you over the speed limit.

3. Pull gently back on the shifter in the direction from third to fourth gear and then gently and smoothly release the throttle. You are NOT trying to force the gear shift to move; you are simply applying enough force on it to tell it WHERE to move when it wants to. Don't pull hard.. just guide. As the power falls off, the gear lever will travel into neutral smoothly and without effort. Keep a SLIGHT pressure on the shifter and hold it towards 4th gear.

4. Don't FORCE the gear shifter into 4th; simply hold it lightly against 4th gear w/ about the same gently guiding pressure as you did above. On my vehicles, including the FR-S, you need even less pressure to slip it into gear than you do to get it out. As the engine revs continue to drop from 3000, they'll naturally pass through the correct matched revs for your current ground speed in fourth gear, and the shifter will slip into fourth gear like butter.

It's WAY more complicated to explain than to do. The four steps above kind of all flow together and shouldn't take more than a second or two, but if it doesn't work, it just means that you weren't holding the gear shifter against fourth at a time when the revs matched. Try it again, only get the revs up a little more before you shift next time. DO NOT force. As long you don't force, you won't do any damage. Downshifting is similar, but you have to goose the throttle when in neutral to get the revs at least slightly above your target matched revs for your target gear. When learning how to do this, it's better to overshoot the target revs considerably and just let the gear slip in as they fall naturally with your foot off the gas.

Just to make sure all the naysayers here WEREN'T right, and that something hadn't changed TOO drastically in the past decade and a half (my most recent other daily driven manual was a '93 325i), I drove my FR-S clutchless most of the day yesterday. It's smooth as SILK... great transmission, and very easy to do. Done with a light touch and a little patience, this will NOT damage your car and would even save some clutch wear, although I'm still not suggesting that the car should be or is designed to be driven in this fashion. I'm just saying it's not hard, it's not harmful, it's useful if your clutch gets messed up, and, probably most importantly, it helps you shift better WITH the clutch because you become much more aware of rev matching which should be done no matter what.

Heel-toe shifting, on the other hand, is a fairly NEW concept to me. I hadn't even heard of it until I joined this forum, and didn't understand the concept until I did some more reading and watching; yeah, I'm not a real "racer." I'll live. I get it now and have been messing around with the technique just for fun. Trust me, it's a lot harder to learn to do that smoothly and gracefully than shifting w/out the clutch is and, IMHO, a lot less useful. Fun to have something new to practice and learn, though.. I'm getting it.

Best to all,

Barry

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

The difference is not enough to get me to double-clutch a transmission with synchros for the entire life of the car.

-Justin

To be clear, I only advocate it in certain circumstances. I guess what I'm saying is there are no hard rules. There are some weak points throughout the driveline and for those people who wish to get maximum life from the components, driving technique can be adjusted as desired.