In for the long haul Ultimate NA build thread.

[celek]

Originally Posted by Snake

http://www.cosworth.com/products/cra...ratec-engines/

280bhp for the top of the range 2.3ltr

Looks like they run dry sump, ITBs, 13:1 compression and 8500rpm limit.

Really can not be used as a comparison though as a 2.4 liter Honda K series can make 400bhp easy on race gas

[Dr Speed]

Originally Posted by celek

Not to mention everything is exponential.
If all I did was increase displacement to 2.3 liters and left everything else stock you are looking at a 15% increase to a base 230 Crank HP All the other addons work with each other.

I think we are bench racing now.
Where do we see that 300cc = 30hp at the crank.


Honestly goodluck with the build tho OP. I think you will have fun but will have the same experience I had with an N/A Boxer build. See below


To give you all an idea of real world numbers from my experience doing a full N/A build on a boxer engine:

My 1999 Boxster for comparison (now sold):
-Flat 6 Innovations 2.5 to 2.9 Big Bore Kit
-R&R Pro Billet Steel Rods
-JE Pistons
- Heads ported and polished
-Schrick Camshaft
- Aasco lightweight flywheel
- TRS crankshaft pulley
- TRS exhaust with Manzo header

Stock dyno 163rwhp, after 212rwhp..... SAE not STD for all the cheats.
^^^ so this is where I am coming from with my comments on where I think power will be. Its not apples to apples this is a H6 (6cyl engine). I spent a fair bit and I can tell you I was let down on the dyno and it was a bitch to tune. I actually first put down numbers in the 180's and 190's and ran for a few months at just over 202rwhp before I found someone to really dial in the car.


So my build was similar I'd say and its a boxer engine. Similar displacement increase.... everything got me about 45-50hp and no joke my tune was on the ragged edge of lean to make the numbers that I did. So if we look at the fact that the FA is a 4 cyl, will be 2300cc's... I dunno but by my math I don't see it gaining more than 40-50rwhp from a full N/a build. Regardless of redline. Just because you rev an engine to 9,000rpm doesn't mean it makes more power that late in the rev range

[celek]

Originally Posted by Dr Speed

I think we are bench racing now.
Where do we see that 300cc = 30hp at the crank.


Honestly goodluck with the build tho OP. I think you will have fun but will have the same experience I had with an N/A Boxer build. See below


To give you all an idea of real world numbers from my experience doing a full N/A build on a boxer engine:

My 1999 Boxster for comparison (now sold):
-Flat 6 Innovations 2.5 to 2.9 Big Bore Kit
-R&R Pro Billet Steel Rods
-JE Pistons
- Heads ported and polished
-Schrick Camshaft
- Aasco lightweight flywheel
- TRS crankshaft pulley
- TRS exhaust with Manzo header

Stock dyno 163rwhp, after 212rwhp..... SAE not STD for all the cheats.
^^^ so this is where I am coming from with my comments on where I think power will be. Its not apples to apples this is a H6 (6cyl engine). I spent a fair bit and I can tell you I was let down on the dyno and it was a bitch to tune. I actually first put down numbers in the 180's and 190's and ran for a few months at just over 202rwhp before I found someone to really dial in the car.


So my build was similar I'd say and its a boxer engine. Similar displacement increase.... everything got me about 45-50hp and no joke my tune was on the ragged edge of lean to make the numbers that I did. So if we look at the fact that the FA is a 4 cyl, will be 2300cc's... I dunno but by my math I don't see it gaining more than 40-50rwhp from a full N/a build. Regardless of redline. Just because you rev an engine to 9,000rpm doesn't mean it makes more power that late in the rev range

I know where you are coming from. Although I do not know the Boxster engine very well it is similar in design. I had a somewhat equivalent experience with a junk yard build.
EJ22 with EJ25 crankshaft. Stock Rods Custom 11:1 pistons to compensate the longer stroke = 2.41ltr
Base EJ22: 135 bhp/Torque 137 lb·ft
After the engine build it made 148WHP and 158FtTQ (BUT all we did was adjust fuel AFR no timing adjustments)
So for 200cc's we saw a 30 Crank HP jump estimating a 12% drivetrain loss.
I think the Variable cam timing in the newer engine vs the older EJ may be able to dial in a bit more power.

I also had a friend with a Very high compression 14:1 EJ25 pull a corrected 308 HP in NA form. But he was on race gas an only used for AutoX

[Dr Speed]

I was going to reference some of the EJ25 builds that average about 210rwhp on full N/A builds, bored, oversized pistons, cams, ported heads, headers etc.


Engine/Power Modifications:
EJ251 bored over 100mm
Wiseco 12:1 pistons/rings
EJ257 crank/rods/oil pump
ACL RACE series bearings, std clearances.
EJ251 SOHC heads, ported by owner, stock valve sizes
Delta 3000 grind cams
EJ253 (AVLS) valve springs
06 2.5i intake manifold (big plenum/big runner)
70mm Ford throttlebody
440cc injectors
LinkPlus G1 standalone engine management
TWE prototype longtube header
2.5" aluminum non catted exhaust
2.5" DNA spiralflow muffler

^^^ All this got the owner 204 rwhp on a built 2.5L

[celek]

Originally Posted by Dr Speed

I was going to reference some of the EJ25 builds that average about 210rwhp on full N/A builds, bored, oversized pistons, cams, ported heads, headers etc.


Engine/Power Modifications:
EJ251 bored over 100mm
Wiseco 12:1 pistons/rings
EJ257 crank/rods/oil pump
ACL RACE series bearings, std clearances.
EJ251 SOHC heads, ported by owner, stock valve sizes
Delta 3000 grind cams
EJ253 (AVLS) valve springs
06 2.5i intake manifold (big plenum/big runner)
70mm Ford throttlebody
440cc injectors
LinkPlus G1 standalone engine management
TWE prototype longtube header
2.5" aluminum non catted exhaust
2.5" DNA spiralflow muffler

^^^ All this got the owner 204 rwhp on a built 2.5L

Similar build the one I know of had differences but again it was corrected estimated Crank.

[sato]

Old post: NA 2.5 RS breaking 300hp back in 2005...

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/t36040...300-na-hp.html

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[Slysdexia]

Not ITT: Area under the curve discussion.

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[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by sato

Old post: NA 2.5 RS breaking 300hp back in 2005...

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5/t36040...300-na-hp.html

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Yet again people using silly crank horsepower estimates.

[sato]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Yet again people using silly crank horsepower estimates.

Well, link arrives at the 235 whp figures...so, yeah... 300hp

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[solidONE]

Any thought about necking down the intake ports for increased intake velocity? Or has that been discussed already?

[celek]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Any thought about necking down the intake ports for increased intake velocity? Or has that been discussed already?

On my to do list once I hot tank these heads and get them to the flow bench in 2 forms. Bone stock and the second set just cleaned up then add putty to see if I can get some velocity.

[solidONE]

This thing is going to be sooo sweet!

[stevo585]

Originally Posted by Dr Speed

I was going to reference some of the EJ25 builds that average about 210rwhp on full N/A builds, bored, oversized pistons, cams, ported heads, headers etc.


Engine/Power Modifications:
EJ251 bored over 100mm
Wiseco 12:1 pistons/rings
EJ257 crank/rods/oil pump
ACL RACE series bearings, std clearances.
EJ251 SOHC heads, ported by owner, stock valve sizes
Delta 3000 grind cams
EJ253 (AVLS) valve springs
06 2.5i intake manifold (big plenum/big runner)
70mm Ford throttlebody
440cc injectors
LinkPlus G1 standalone engine management
TWE prototype longtube header
2.5" aluminum non catted exhaust
2.5" DNA spiralflow muffler

^^^ All this got the owner 204 rwhp on a built 2.5L

The FA20 does not = EJxxx. The combustion camber design is much better and it has DI those alone are very significant and something the aftermarket cant really help.

Id bet money the OP hits 250whp+ especially on e85.

[MattHoffman]

Originally Posted by stevo585

The FA20 does not = EJxxx. The combustion camber design is much better and it has DI those alone are very significant and something the aftermarket cant really help.

Id bet money the OP hits 250whp+ especially on e85.

i broke that with 3500$.. just saying. but then again my car is just like 1000 other brzs this will be one of a kind for sure