Brakes, Brakes, and more Brakes

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

Your standard brakes are OK, but your standard brake fluid is not. It'll boil after about 4 hot laps.
So, upgrade your brake fluid to (min) Motul RBF660 (R400) and you should be fine for 10 x 1m30 laps at least.

With upgraded fluid you'll avoid catastophic failure caused by boiling brake fluid. Instead, you'll be able to feel your brakes going off progressively and gradually as you overheat your pads and you'll know when to go in.

It's all about safety, and boiling standard brake fluid is sudden, unpredictable, and you lose 80% of your braking, which means you go off the track - badly
I can assure you that it's your worst nightmare.

Unpredictable - because failure happens when you don't expect it. You overheat the brake fluid at a heavy braking point like the end of a long straight, but it doesn't boil then because it's under pressure. When you take your foot off the brake, the pressure reduces, then it boils - just like a pressure cooker. The next time you need your brakes (which could be just a quick dab before a kink, or whatever) then you get the nasty surprise.

I do a lot of tracking, my car's supercharged, I give it horns, and I've got standard spec (smaller) brakes. I normally use PB discs but stock are OK too. I use Endless PB05/MX72 pads and I don't have braided lines. My brakes are OK, and many people have been surprised by how late and how hard I can brake. The only reason I can see for me to upgrade to a BBK is to cut costs on pads and rotors, but I'm not yet convinced it'll be a saving... I doubt if a BBK will make me brake better or improve my lap times either. So for now, the R20k stays in my pocket

But maybe I just need more convincing - LOL

I'll tell you once I've upgraded. ��
Just deciding if discs, pads etc are better value than the bbk.
It would be good to see you drive a car for the first half a day on stock brakes, then switch to better ones and see what the times are like... I'll bet they'd be better. Based on my (many) years of bikes it makes a huge difference. Especially as you get better at driving/riding.
I raced so I know the 'demands' of hard braking well... Just know them better on 2 wheels.

[LostSalad]

This is after 4 track days and a whole bunch of highway driving. 2x Red Star, 2x Zwartkops. Endless PB05 from PowerBrake running on their slotted discs.

How long do guide shims last? Mine are getting more and more fked up every time I look at them. They're rusted, burnt and look kind of crispy. Do you just get replacements from Toyota? Is this even important?

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle
Time for a service, then time to hit a racetrack again

As an experiment, I've sourced some parts from Subaru instead of Toyota with very encouraging results...

In the front of the photo, part 803916010 is the crushable sump plug washer. This is a very common service part for an 86 because it must be replaced with every oil change. On Tuesday, I went to Imperial Toyota Nelspruit, and they had none in stock - whaat? So I ordered 5. On Thursday I went to pick up the parts, and was told that only 2 had arrived - whaat? So then the dumb spares counterjumper went to find them and could only find one - whaat? So, I took the one washer, cost R11.89. Bloody idiots, and they wonder why I don't support them.

Anyway, then I went to Subaru Nelspruit and asked them if they have the equivalent part. Yep, in stock, so I took five at the princely price of R5 each incl. That's 42% of the Toyota price - whaat? And that's exactly how you lose a customer forever - it's a matter of principle.

So I decided to explore this avenue a bit further...

Left middle in the photo, part 26696AG031 is Subaru rear brake pads for a standard spec 86. In stock, off the shelf at R1071.36 incl at Subaru Nelspruit. The last Toyota price comparison I have is on 08 May 2014 part SU00304096 at R1570.36 incl. So Subaru today is 68% of Toyota's price a year and a half ago - whaat? Last price I have from Powerbrake for Bendix rear pads (Aug 2015) is R1584.60 incl plus shipping.

Left bottom in the photo, part 26296SC011 is Subaru front brake pads for a standard spec 86. I've decided to give them a try because Toyota stock pads aren't bad, they just need lots of pedal pressure because they lack bite. Also in stock at Subaru Nelspruit, off the shelf at R1626.56 incl. I've never bought front pads from Toyota so I'd be interested if someone's got a price. My last price from Powerbrake for MX72/PB05 front pads (Aug 2015) was R2722.32 incl plus shipping.

Sure, I get a good deal from the local Subaru guys (you don't get what you deserve, you get what you can negotiate an'all) but there's some serious price differences there - phew!!

Gonna be interesting to see how the brake pads perform...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quoting my earlier post in another thread, and some more price info...

Just for interest's sake, I got a brake pads quote from Toyota (NTT Barberton)
Toyota Barberton - total R3867 front R2241 rear R1626
Subaru Nelspruit - total R2698 front R1627 rear R1071
Powerbrake - total R4451 front R2722 rear R1585 shipping R144

I'll be fitting the Subaru pads tomorrow, and I'll probably be on track this weekend then I can see how they perform.

Yesterday I tried to transplant this from the other thread to this brakes thread where it belongs, and it didn't work.
Now I think I got it right

Life's tough when you're old and stoopid...

[Fish Eagle]

OK, here's next step in exploring the (cheap) Subaru brake pads.

I fitted them today, and...

I was surprised by their thickness.

Firstly, I've handled and fitted many, many 86 pads and I was worried whether they were too thick to fit.
They did - just, and now I'm quite chuffed to know that I've got maximum pad material possible because another tenth of a mm would not have gone in

Secondly, I was amazed by all the bits and pieces that came with them - see pic below. With pads from Toyota and Powerbrake, I've sometimes (not always) had replacement shims, but this was almost OTT. Double shims, and end shim/spacers which I've never had before (approx 8-10 sets of pads from other vendors), and even grease (the dark sachet), and some of that anti-squeak stuff (the gold sachet) - really cool. Now, I don't necessarily use all that sh*t, but it gave me a serious feeling of quality.

I did both front and back pads, and the other set was the same - many goodies in the box.

Took my car for a drive to see what's what, but I didn't want to heat them up much yet.
My initial observation is that they respond well to heat, and bite well when hot.
I can't wait to see how they perform on track.

Excited

[sav]

Thoughts on stock pads at Zwartkops?

I've helped my neighbor replace front & rear pads on his Outback and was also amazed by how much "stuff" is included in the OEM box.

Less amazing was me telling him to be careful with those shiny "spring" pieces and then proceeding to cut one deep under my thumb nail with blood everywhere.

[Fish Eagle]

My conclusions after testing the Subaru brake pads at Zwartkops.

Subaru Rear pads:
Suitable for all road and track use.
Much cheaper than Toyota.
Buy them instead of Toyota pads.

Subaru front pads:
Suitable for responsible road use.
Marginal for spirited road use.
Unsuitable for track use.
Much cheaper than Toyota.
Buy them instead of Toyota pads only if you don't plan to track your car, and you don't drive like a hooligan.

[sav]

Thanks, not sure if I've missed it earlier in the thread but are the Subaru pads different from the Toyota pads? Are they marked "Jurid"?

Reason for asking is because the pads that came out of the Outback were marked Jurid and OEM fitted by Subaru but the new ones were different.

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by sav

Thanks, not sure if I've missed it earlier in the thread but are the Subaru pads different from the Toyota pads? Are they marked "Jurid"?

Reason for asking is because the pads that came out of the Outback were marked Jurid and OEM fitted by Subaru but the new ones were different.

No Jurid on them, also no Subaru.
Just a tiny logo that looks like a Lexus logo.
They were in proper Subaru packaging though.

They are different to Toyota pads, very noticable is that they are thicker.

[sav]

Thanks, that's very interesting.

[86 South Africa]

So I have decided on the following...

Powerbrake bits:
Awesome New RS Series - High Carbon Slotted disks - R2285.70
Endless PB05 (MX72) pad - R2783.88
SS Brake Lines - R741

Fitting (optional) - R450.

Total = R6260.58 (including fitting)

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by 86 South Africa

So I have decided on the following...

Powerbrake bits:
Awesome New RS Series - High Carbon Slotted disks - R2285.70
Endless PB05 (MX72) pad - R2783.88
SS Brake Lines - R741

Fitting (optional) - R450.

Total = R6260.58 (including fitting)

Sounds good, you won't be disappointed.

Just make sure that you follow their bedding in procedure to the letter, and don't be scared if you see smoke and smell the pads burning - that's normal and it's important to do that.

http://www.powerbrake.co.za/Articles.asp?ID=254

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

Sounds good, you won't be disappointed.

Just make sure that you follow their bedding in procedure to the letter, and don't be scared if you see smoke and smell the pads burning - that's normal and it's important to do that.

http://www.powerbrake.co.za/Articles.asp?ID=254

Thanks for the tip. I knew about bedding in, but not the smoke/burning smell.

I'll post updates once I've had a good few drives

[riri86]

Originally Posted by 86 South Africa

So I have decided on the following...

Powerbrake bits:
Awesome New RS Series - High Carbon Slotted disks - R2285.70
Endless PB05 (MX72) pad - R2783.88
SS Brake Lines - R741

Fitting (optional) - R450.

Total = R6260.58 (including fitting)

I'm waiting her patiently for your reviews

Those exact same parts are on my shopping list!

Hope you got the brake fluid too.

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by riri86

I'm waiting her patiently for your reviews

Those exact same parts are on my shopping list!

Hope you got the brake fluid too.

Sure thing - definitely going to get the Motul fluid - not much point upgrading all the other bits and then sticking with the stock/lower quality stuff

I'm a really bad mechanic, but will be installing myself just so see how easy it actually is... luckily my dad is great and will be there to help (so I don't mess up a rather important part of the car )

Reviews to follow soon.

Just BTW - chat to RMS in Pretoria - he's got great advice on these things too!