Everyday Driver - ND Miata vs. FR-S vs. BRZ

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by JS + BRZ

just when I was about to say "a meme is coming in 3,2..."

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

I'm really just most concerned with overall weight. If the car is light enough it can get away with bad tires, crap suspension design, solid rear axle, etc.

I had a few 3rd gen camaro/firebirds and spent decent time and money on the suspension. when I totaled my last one I ended up picking up an S12 200sx just to drive while I looked for another f-body.

The stupid Datsun on pep boys tires handled way better than my upgraded gm's running wide z rated tires. I was a convert, and never looked back. I don't think I've owned a car that weighs 3000 pounds or more since then (S12 200SX x 3 ~2500lbs, S13 240SX ~2700lbs, 1998 Civic ~2400lbs, 2005 xb ~2500lbs, 2001 Miata ~2400lbs, FR-s ~2800lbs).

Edit: Damnit. I own a Subaru Outback, but that is pretty much used like a pickup truck.

-Justin

cannot blame you for that but just FYI, GM and Ford came a long away, and obviously they're light years ahead of 3rd Gen Camaro or Mustang, even the existing Camaro (Gen 5) has received so much upgrades after 2012 so the changes are huge even within the same generation , (2010 vs 2015) ..while they're too busy competing with each other, they left the European cars in dust

nowadays GM and Ford makes a lot faster sports cars with a considerably lower price tag than those European sports cars including : M4, S4, AMGs ..etc.. my friend who owns both Camaro SS 1LE and a supercharged Miata gets similar lap times in our local tracks and swears that the 1LE has a similar turn in and handling response ..many people say the same for the GT-R, maybe because it has huge/sticky 305/30/19 tires all around and the cutting edge spool valve suspension that is used in F1 cars

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Entroper

I think we all get it, DAEMANO. You don't need to tell us for the 27th time.

This: was meant to say "cheers, it's all good", it wasn't meant to be a passive aggressive jab which you seem to be throwing back in my face repeatedly. So if it came across as the latter, my apologies

That didn't look like a "cheers all good" to me. Yep, it was exactly as you defined it, a passive-aggressive jab.

Originally Posted by Entroper

DAEMANO, I think you misunderstood me since your response was so aggressive.

I responded aggressively enough to your passive-aggressiveness to illustrate that I understood it's meaning. Nonetheless apology accepted. All good.

Look at my first post in this thread. I liked the review, I liked that it actually covered the advantages of the 86. I even agreed with you that the cars have their separate niches. I, too, don't have a dog in this fight -- or maybe you could say I have both dogs (see avatar, and replace the NB on the left with an ND).

I just think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill every single time anyone posts a laptime comparison. We can all read, we can all do arithmetic. We know the difference between $26k and $29k and $32k.

This is where I disagree. The $6k of upgrades is is not a molehill, but instead the difference in how the reviewers and thus some of the public perceive the performance and dynamics of the ND (and especially vs. the 86).

Upgrading just about any $26k car with OEM selected LSD, shocks, brakes, wheels, tires and aero is going to improve the cars' dynamics and performance pretty drastically. Just the tires, dampers, or springs alone will reflect marked measurable gains (that's why people upgrade them at all). Specifically in the Everyday Driver video, both guys speak of how the Launch Edition MX-5 is lacking dynamically in comparison to either 86 they tested. This is very much a different result than we've seen with the Clubsport edition MX-5's tested by R&T and C&D. Plainly, upgrading a Miata with $6k in mods has made enough of an improvement to sway journalists opinions. IMO that contrast is what makes the Everyday Driver video so relevant.

True, even I admit to repeating my point, however this repetition is a reaction. Like I said, every time the $6k difference in cost from Miata base to Miata Clubsport is attempted to be swept under the rug, I have every right to bring it back up. If people stop trying to minimize that fact, I'll have no need to mention it. The fact that some have attempted to repeatedly minimize that much money in upgrades is what really blows my mind.

FWIW, I think the differences in suspension between the two trims are minor enough that the tires make more of a difference. That's according to subjective statements from individuals on miata.net. I did post a thread in the ND Suspension category asking if anyone had measured or otherwise discovered the differences in spring rate and/or damping, and I never got a reply with actual measurements or sourced specs.

You're probably never going to get an answer to this.

Also I flat out disagree with the notion that the upgraded Bilstein's and likely the springs too are a minor difference. A well tuned and damped suspension adds traction under all conditions which improve both driver confidence and lap times.

Lastly, with all due respect, please don't try to speak for anyone but yourself. Using "we" instead of "I" doesn't bolster your point at all. You seem like a knowledgeable person. Even if I don't agree with some of your opinions, I'd listen to them even if they came just from you.

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by glamcem

cannot blame you for that but just FYI, GM and Ford came a long away, and obviously they're light years ahead of 3rd Gen Camaro or Mustang, even the existing Camaro (Gen 5) has received so much upgrades after 2012 so the changes are huge even within the same generation , (2010 vs 2015) ..while they're too busy competing with each other, they left the European cars in dust

nowadays GM and Ford makes a lot faster sports cars with a considerably lower price tag than those European sports cars including : M4, S4, AMGs ..etc.. my friend who owns both Camaro SS 1LE and a supercharged Miata gets similar lap times in our local tracks and swears that the 1LE has a similar turn in and handling response ..many people say the same for the GT-R, maybe because it has huge/sticky 305/30/19 tires all around and the cutting edge spool valve suspension that is used in F1 cars

I'm kind of an automotive luddite. I like mechanical things. Although with enough tire and enough computers controlling enough things you can make a heavy car behave like a lighter one, I'd rather just get the lighter one to start.

A Camaro weighs an entire Lotus 7 more than a Miata.

I can't deny the appeal of a V8 grumble. I get it. I'm not putting down the cars or the people who drive them - just not my preference.

Some guys like girls with round bottoms, some guys prefer busty ladies. There's no real right or wrong preference there.

-Justin

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

I'm really just most concerned with overall weight. If the car is light enough it can get away with bad tires, crap suspension design, solid rear axle, etc.

I had a few 3rd gen camaro/firebirds and spent decent time and money on the suspension. when I totaled my last one I ended up picking up an S12 200sx just to drive while I looked for another f-body.

The stupid Datsun on pep boys tires handled way better than my upgraded gm's running wide z rated tires. I was a convert, and never looked back. I don't think I've owned a car that weighs 3000 pounds or more since then (S12 200SX x 3 ~2500lbs, S13 240SX ~2700lbs, 1998 Civic ~2400lbs, 2005 xb ~2500lbs, 2001 Miata ~2400lbs, FR-s ~2800lbs).

Edit: Damnit. I own a Subaru Outback, but that is pretty much used like a pickup truck.

-Justin

Thanks for this anecdote. For sure cars got bigger and heavier due to safety regulations (thankfully btw). Muscle cars are what they are because they come from those heavy passenger car platforms. Fortunately there are two of mfgs that still believe in the financial arguments for low cost dedicated sports car chassis. Miata, and 86/FR-S/BRZ are pretty much it. I hoped that the S-FR would be based on a dedicated sports car chassis, but that is looking to be less so. After that there's a huge jump in cost to Alpha 4C/6C, Elise/Evora, Boxster/Cayman. So long wallet... Hopefully Honda, one of the Korean mfgs jump into the fray. American mfgs are following the business and that means more overweight, overly complex muscle GTs. Maybe someday they'll come around too.

[Entroper]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I was browsing for fodd- I mean fun and found corksport claiming same spring rates across all MX-5 models, just a change in dampers for the Club trim, but maybe that falls under no actual measurements or sourced specs.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...2&postcount=33

Yeah, it falls under that, and it also contradicts what Mazda reps have stated publicly. For the NC, it was Bilsteins, same springs, different rear sway bar. For the ND, Mazda has said it's the opposite -- the springs are different on the Club, but the rear sway bar is the same.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

You're probably never going to get an answer to this.

You can find specs on the stock spring rates for past generations, so I figure it's only a matter of time until we know what the ND has.

Actually, I went back and checked that thread: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...3&postcount=71

The Sport (and presumably GT) rates were measured at 156/80, and the Club at 150/100, and I assume that's lb/in. The measurements were taken by two different people with probably different equipment, so likely the front rates are the same and it's the rears that have gotten 20% stiffer or thereabouts. That makes sense given Mazda's commentary that they changed the springs instead of the rear sway bar.

Also I flat out disagree with the notion that the upgraded Bilstein's and likely the springs too are a minor difference. A well tuned and damped suspension adds traction under all conditions which improve both driver confidence and lap times.

I would be more inclined to agree if there were a major difference. Maybe the Bilsteins are that much better than the base (heh, I almost wrote "stock" there ) shocks, I dunno. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong if ever a journalist decides to test both, might make my decision of which trim to get a little easier.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Entroper

Yeah, it falls under that, and it also contradicts what Mazda reps have stated publicly. For the NC, it was Bilsteins, same springs, different rear sway bar. For the ND, Mazda has said it's the opposite -- the springs are different on the Club, but the rear sway bar is the same.



You can find specs on the stock spring rates for past generations, so I figure it's only a matter of time until we know what the ND has.

Actually, I went back and checked that thread: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...3&postcount=71

The Sport (and presumably GT) rates were measured at 156/80, and the Club at 150/100, and I assume that's lb/in. The measurements were taken by two different people with probably different equipment, so likely the front rates are the same and it's the rears that have gotten 20% stiffer or thereabouts. That makes sense given Mazda's commentary that they changed the springs instead of the rear sway bar.



I would be more inclined to agree if there were a major difference. Maybe the Bilsteins are that much better than the base (heh, I almost wrote "stock" there ) shocks, I dunno. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong if ever a journalist decides to test both, might make my decision of which trim to get a little easier.

Sorry, what I meant was you're most likely not going to get shock dynos from the base dampers to Clubsport dampers.

The 20% increase in rear spring rate is dynamically significant in that it was probably added to balance the handling of what was likely an initially understeering base MX-5 (assuming that the base MX-5 was setup to initially understeer as most road cars are). This would make the Miata feel more crisp on it's turn in and also more controllable with just the throttle. All base 86's now share this handling trait (minor initial understeer) since the FR-S was matched to the BRZ rates in 2014. This initial understeer is considered more safe on the street, but less desirable for spirited driving. It can be dialed out in many ways adding front end mechanical grip is one. Todd noted this when speaking about some of the advantages of the MPSS tire upgrade on his FR-S.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by totopo

The problem with that test was it was done on different cars on different days. The second day was considerably cooler, which helps out considerably. Also don't remember if it was the same driver, or if the second car was stock except for tires. I can't find an english version of that test.

All in all, very skeptical.

I didn't see any differences listed in ambient temps or cars/drivers in that test.

Regardless, if you can find three tire tests showing the Twins see no improvement (or even better, get slower) switching to MP tires, we can weigh the evidence and figure out which set of tests is more convincing.

Until then, it's all a bit moot. To date, I haven't seen a single test that concludes the Twins don't improve on MP tires, but there are three that say they do. Four, if you include the Nurburgring test (which I threw out).

[fatoni]

Spring rates don't really matter for cars that are designed to corner on the bump stops

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by fatoni

Spring rates don't really matter for cars that are designed to corner on the bump stops

Actually, they do. The bump stop (jounce bumper) acts a a secondary spring that has a rate of its' own. Riding on a bump stop does not eliminate the rate of the primary spring. So the rates of both the primary spring and bump stop work together to deliver the desired spring rate (in a well tuned suspension). Bump stop tuning is very much a thing.

http://honda-tech.com/suspension-bra...uning-3058735/

http://eibach.com/america/en/motorsp...ries/bumpstops

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Actually, they do. The bump stop (jounce bumper) acts a a secondary spring that has a rate of its' own. Riding on a bump stop does not eliminate the rate of the primary spring. So the rates of both the primary spring and bump stop work together to deliver the desired spring rate (in a well tuned suspension). Bump stop tuning is very much a thing.

http://honda-tech.com/suspension-bra...uning-3058735/

http://eibach.com/america/en/motorsp...ries/bumpstops

missing the point ins search of some rhetoric but yeah, i guess

[Dr Speed]

I don't really like the podcast that these guys put out. At first it seemed good, but their material is weak, they talk about the same cars repeatedly in references, very annoying.


I take most car reviews with a grain of salt. I have loved cars that others have hated and hated cars that others rave about.


I expect the obvious outcome with them having an FRS as a long term review.. they will drive it, like it to an extent, reference it non stop as a comparison to similar and different cars, grow tired of it, complain and build gripes and eventually dump it within 2-3 years...

[SUB-FT86]

Did you guys know that the CoG of the 2016 Mx5 is 18.5 inches? So it's is .4 inches higher than the 86 despite the fact that the Mx5's height is 2 inches lower than the 86.

[Entroper]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Did you guys know that the CoG of the 2016 Mx5 is 18.5 inches? So it's is .4 inches higher than the 86 despite the fact that the Mx5's height is 2 inches lower than the 86.

I was actually impressed that it was only 0.4 inches, given the upright I4 engine.