How satisfied are you with your FR-S/BRZ?

[damnitBobby]

I've logged a couple of thousand miles on my '16 so I think I can leave some reasonably constructive comments.

I like the exterior design save for the wheels. In the photos the stock wheels look underwhelming, and in person... they still look underwhelming. But I really hate aftermarket wheels since most of them scream boy racer hella ghey.

The motor isn't bad, but it isn't special either. It's just okay. It's not as smooth and exotic sounding as my previous RX8 and it surely doesn't pull like my previous 350Z, but I like to think of it as the little engine that could. At least it gets pretty decent gas mileage.

As far as creature comforts I like the rear back up camera and the touchscreen interface (new for '16 models). It's intuitive and easy to use. The sound system is good enough.

Driver enjoyment is where this car excels. With the TRD exhaust, this car is super fun to wind out. I love redlining it everyday on my commute to and from work. I also like the fact that you don't see very many in my area. It's to the point when I actually do see one, I do a double take and give a friendly driver nod regardless of who's driving.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

For the R35, here's a CSG post about how much it costs to track one if you are running at 10/10ths and do the maintenance by the book:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=20

Triple my take home pay (I own my FR-S outright in less than 3 years and am staying afloat in SF) and I'll still stick with the FR-S. You can operate a real racecar for the kind of money a GTR consumes as a 'toy'. Sure maybe you never track or autox it and it consumes brakes, tires and fluids at the same rate or less than I consume them on my FR-S, they still cost 2x-3x as much at the same intervals.

Oh, I agree that the GTR is way more expensive stock for stock and even light/medium modding. My point was that I don't see the point in hacking an FR-S apart to try to make it something that it isn't. LS swaps make no sense to me because you can already get an LS in a similar package (size weight) in a C5 or C6 corvette. By the time someone puts the big power LS in it, beefs up the diffs, axles, transmission, etc, the FR-S is no longer a 2700lb finesse car. The chassis wasn't designed to put that kind of power down traction wise, so you're looking at hacking the body away for big tires. It all just doesn't make sense to me. So, if someone really wants to make BIG power (400+ crank), the FR-S probably isn't a good place to start. The supercharger kits that are out don't raise power to insane levels. I think this car can handle 300 without blowing up the drivetrain and being undrivable until 3rd gear.

Edit: Given how well the FA20 takes boost, with 4x CARB legal FI kits on the market I haven't seen a single CARB kit fail (that couldn't have failed similarly if at stock power, i.e. broken axles due to lowering) the 86 is a pretty heavy hitter for a <$50k budget at ~240whp (~300 crank hp) and ~2,800 lbs you're at roughly a 10lbs/hp ratio, that's like Muscle car status with much better agility. I'd bet that's a much faster car than 99.9% of people can truly utilize, sure that's a $15k check to drop if you do everything currently accepted as needed but you're still well under GTR running costs even assuming the worst.

I think we're on the same page here.

As for the depreciation I agree, I think we'll see a leveling off in the $17k-$12k region (in fact I think we're already starting to see that, sub $20k became the norm recently for first year cars but it's not falling noticeably over the past year), they will stay there for quite a few years unless the 2nd gen makes them obsolete (big improvements, same price) or a severe failure mode appears, check out used RSX, MX-5, S2k and Mk2 RX-8 prices, they've been very stable for the last ~5 years because demand is pretty consistent and supply is low, conversely early Mk1 RX-8's are dirt cheap because they had a severe reliability problem, one that was fixed on the second generation.

I remember shopping for RSX's as my first car 5 years ago, looking today they're pretty much in the same ballpark. And it's both cool and disheartening to watch NA Miata prices climb as they surpass the 25 year mark, I think that desirable mass produced cars experience a 50 year curve with rock bottom happening at about 25 years and break-even (inflation adjusted) happens at ~50 years. (see 911, Mustang, Alfa Romeos, RX-7 is a good example of a car at the ~30-35 year mark, average nice examples are worth equivalent dollars to their purchase price at $10k [FB anyway])

I think we'll see nice 86's under $10k at some point (or it's inflation adjusted equivalent), but that's probably about 10-15 years from now in contradiction to @Tcoat infographic, but the 86 is a bit more special than your average $30k car.

[/quote]

Yup, I was shopping S2000s in 2010 before I decided to wait to see what the FT86 would turn out to be. Prices really haven't dropped much on those. The reason is because that kind of car is dead in the US market now. The new MX5 is about the closest you can get, and it is still a very different animal.

[Mim]

Originally Posted by Who8myrice

I don't think it's fair to compare any car to used car value of Tacoma. Atleast since new model is out, expect to lose little more on Tacoma.
But I do not know why people get to caught up on losing value of new car. Car come and go. Most of middle age people had more then few cars in their lifetime already.
If that bothers you that much, save up and buy classic.

Strangely enough, in Australia the red book re-sale value of a BRZ is 61% after 3 years. The same as an STI and the highest of the entire Subaru range.

Would you believe the 86 is 65%. To put that into perspective every Porsche model on sale here is 57%.

Yes its still cheaper to buy used, but (at least here) the savings isn't all that much. I'd be interested in seeing what the average retention rate is for a twin in Australia. I think it will actually be quite high seeing as its still a new car and at $35 to $40k Aud most would generally hold onto theirs for longer (minimise depreciation hit) and so force up the used market price simply due to less cars hitting the used market.

I'm still deeply in love with my MY15 BRZ. Just over a year and no problems of any kind. Solid as a tank and no rattles.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Quentin

My point was that I don't see the point in hacking an FR-S apart to try to make it something that it isn't.

Definitely on the same page.

[Large]

Originally Posted by Phantobe

Wow thats an awesome dealer haha, good customer relations.

Have you driven a Z yet?

Not driven a Z but ridden in plenty. Not very hard to make some real horsepower and about the same price to do FI on one as the 86 .. but don't think I will ever go that route .. haha can't keep a car that long.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Huh, I'm loving how easy power will be, a supercharger/turbo kit I can bolt on in a weekend for ~50% gains while still being smog legal and reliable? Yeah, $5k-$6k for 100 horses (or 70-80 if you're so inclined) isn't the best $/hp ratio but looking at other people trying to modify strung out NA four-bangers I think we've got it good.

380+ whp takes either big money up front (quality turbo design) or big money keeping all >5L fueled no matter what car you buy, off the shelf or aftermarket. Seriously how many cars actually come with that much power? Cayman has never had that much power, the first generation 911 GT3 had 380 at the crank, a base C6 was at 400 crank, hell even the first generation Viper had that much.

You want more power than a first gen Viper with an 8L V10 or 2013 C6 Corvette in a car that weighs 500 lbs less for 1/2 the cost? I want what you're smoking. Yeah it can be done on other cars and engines with a few compromises, but this just feels like a ridiculous expectation imo.

I guess I'm just used to seeing older 4 bangers of the past like B18C's and 2ZZGEs push power harder than this engine does. My initial hopes when I bought the car was that it had lots of easy power making potential. Not the case from all of my searching and continued search. I was hoping it would've been something that was potentially overbuilt. The truth is, it's average at best and very expensive to make powerful. It's probably best to just leave it NA if sticking with the FA20. Or at most, a max of 300whp seems to be the limits of the stock motor. Anything more, prepare for a costly engine/head build and throw a gearbox build or swap in there too. It's quite a shame since 300whp is nothing and anything more will require a second mortgage.

Of course it all isn't about the power. The chassis design is really the star here. That's the piece of the car that is extremely well engineered and a big part of why I bought this car. Just wished there was more potential with the drivetrain as it is severely limited after 300whp pumpgas. They just don't build'em like they used to. With all the cost cutting involved these days, this car was put together to be "good enough". There was no cheap phenomenal power increase I was dreaming of. The FA20 and Aisin gearbox are merely average. Making this 4 banger powerful just isn't in the cards unless you've got deep deep pockets. Not one race team has used the FA20 successfully. Every powerful FRS racecar that has been documented does not use this engine. At least not any I have come across. The only person was the unsuccessful KSR. Unless somebody can show me a very powerful FA20 that is competing and winning in wheel to wheel racing, there just isn't one (yet?). But where this car shines is in it's associated NA class or under 300hp. The FRS annihilates its class. But pushing north of 300whp with older engines like B18C's, SR and even KA's was nothing. It's quite a shame that even after 25 years of improvement, we're still limited to what other engines from 1992 have achieved.

For quality as a whole, I've come to accept that the car is built on the low end of the economy scale. Sure, it's a $25k sports car. But after owning this car for 2.5 years, there are a lot of areas where I feel they chinced out hard. A stupid Corolla XRS has slightly better build quality I'm affraid. The paint is shit and the body panels are the thinnest I've come to know.

All things considered, the chassis and design are extremely excellent which is why I chose this car. It's a shame the engine just does not lend itself cost effectively in making real power. The chassis can take so much more than what the FA20 and AZ6 could ever allow. With that, the Vorshlag kit is looking more and more appealing each day.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by hmong337

It's quite a shame since 300whp is nothing and anything more will require a second mortgage.

This sounds incredibly "internet tough guy" of you, but I can comprehend what you're getting at. Maybe some day I'll get to the point where I can say something like a Cayman S is weak on the power scale, but I'm not there yet.

[WRX4ME]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

This sounds incredibly "internet tough guy" of you, but I can comprehend what you're getting at. Maybe some day I'll get to the point where I can say something like a Cayman S is weak on the power scale, but I'm not there yet.

I concur. This is my second BRZ. I've owned an S-2000 with a supercharger as well as a 370Z. Both were fast cars, but I love the suspension dynamics of the BRZ. With the S2000, I ended up wishing it wasnt supercharged. I'm not blind to the BRZ's flaws, I just don't care. It's a $25k car. It's not going to be appointed inside like a Porsche. They put the $$ into the suspension and it shows. It was designed more with canyon carving in mind, not necessarily for Joe Streetracer who wants to embarrass a Camaro stoplight to stoplight. Lotus proved you could have a blast with a lightweight platform and a 150 hp twin-cam motor. It all depends on what you want out of a car. Subaru engines are expensive to make fast, and even then, they are still somewhat fragile. its just how it is. I think Honda kinda spoiled everyone with their ability to be tuned beyond their reasonable mechanical limits. But even their engines blow up with too much boost. Just my $0.02

[hmong337]

All valid points. I just wished there was more left on the table in terms of power making potential with the stock engine. As well has more holding power with the stock gearbox. Ah well, can't have it all. At least the chassis and handling prowess are that of a much more expensive car. I consider it a compliment when people compare the FRS to the S2000. They're technically not even in the same league as the S2000 was much more expensive when new and was a flagship car. The frs/brz is more in line competing against cars like the Civic Si and RSX-s or Miata.

A 2.2L with a slight decrease in compression but still 200hp would've did wonders for the aftermarket. It's all good, the car is still great as is.

[shiumai]

I'd say that in stock form, I was satisfied 7/10. I bought the car knowing i was going to mod it a certain amount, and budgeted for that.
For those who say 'you bought the wrong car', i did my research before buying. there's no other car that matched my budget, needs and preferences. i needed a 2+2, so that eliminated quite a few options. the closest thing that would have matched what i was looking for was a hyundai genesis coupe, which i did not want. a WRX STi would have matched some of what i was looking for, but to me, they don't look like a sports car, which is what i wanted, coming from a '78 280Z. i basically wanted something similar in size and look to my Z, but 2+2. i didn't want a BMW or other sport sedan.
But, i knew that i could turn the BRZ into the car i wanted with mods, so that's the route i went. my satisfaction is going up as well. I'm at about 8.5/10 right now.

[WRX4ME]

Originally Posted by hmong337

All valid points. I just wished there was more left on the table in terms of power making potential with the stock engine. As well has more holding power with the stock gearbox. Ah well, can't have it all. At least the chassis and handling prowess are that of a much more expensive car. I consider it a compliment when people compare the FRS to the S2000. They're technically not even in the same league as the S2000 was much more expensive when new and was a flagship car. The frs/brz is more in line competing against cars like the Civic Si and RSX-s or Miata.

A 2.2L with a slight decrease in compression but still 200hp would've did wonders for the aftermarket. It's all good, the car is still great as is.

A valid point on the 2.2L lower compression motor. With Subaru, however, you have to remember that the EJ motor in the STI is 2.5L with lower compression and it will frag in a hurry if you dont spend serious $$ beefing up the block. The stock pistons are like soft chocolates.

In any event, just wanted to say: I LOVE your MR2. My god, I drooled over those when I was in high school. Its so hard to find clean ones that havent been absolutely ruined.

[Phantobe]

Originally Posted by hmong337

All valid points. I just wished there was more left on the table in terms of power making potential with the stock engine. As well has more holding power with the stock gearbox. Ah well, can't have it all. At least the chassis and handling prowess are that of a much more expensive car. I consider it a compliment when people compare the FRS to the S2000. They're technically not even in the same league as the S2000 was much more expensive when new and was a flagship car. The frs/brz is more in line competing against cars like the Civic Si and RSX-s or Miata.

A 2.2L with a slight decrease in compression but still 200hp would've did wonders for the aftermarket. It's all good, the car is still great as is.

The FA20 is good for what it is, most people didn't even thing you'd be able to reliably boost this motor due to the high compression ratio so thats pretty awesome. The sweet spot seems to be around 250-275WHP and you really don't need to upgrade much at all besides cooling mods. I still haven't heard of any JRSC owners that blew up yet which is an awesome kit (along with edlebrock) that will put down around that much power.

But yeah if youre looking at 350+WHP you're looking at some serious upgrades and may want to just consider doing an engine swap >_>

[Brayden_23]

I've been pretty happy with mine so far. I have only owned it for 2 months, but the car has really grown on me. My only regret is not paying a little extra for the RS so I can have HIDs, as these stock headlights are pitiful. But that just adds to the list of mods I get to add to it and make it my own. Absolutely love the amount of modifications available for this car. Windy back roads are an absolute blast

[P86RAVES]

1 Year 7 mo, still can't stand anything but the exterior about this car.