New Mazda RX Vision concept

[yelsew]

Originally Posted by RandomDeception

I have often wondered why 4 cylinder race engines that could rev to 10,000 RPM that produce far over 100 horsepower per litre of displacement hardly ever make it to production cars. I used to think it was either the much lower reliability or a significantly higher cost (though that might be mitigated by a large scale production rather than producing in small batches). Now though, I could see how emissions regulations and fuel economy targets might also affect their usage in the .

You are right that emissions and regulations hold back these types of engines from production, and yes, to achieve these engine speeds, a good bit of extra cost goes into these engines. The one thing that, from my experience, keeps these engines out of our cars is their life expectancy, for many race engines measure their life in hours rather than miles.



Sent from my Glade Air Freshener

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by totopo

So I compared the 370z weight to the more expensiveand slightly smaller and similar weights z4 and slk300. You said, the z4 and slk300 are heavier and don't matter because they are luxury cars. I don't think that is the case. I think that the luxury component adds to the price, but not necessarily the weight. Expensive leather and trim isn't really too much heavier than cheap fake leather and trim.

And yes, the s2k is awesome... But it was over $40k and and can't pass modern crash or emissions so it doesn't really count for anything.

Haha, and of course the way to more power on an na engine is to rev higher; the problem is that it isn't easy. Or everyone would just make like f1 engines and rev to 18k. Easy way to double the power output! Do you think the Subaru engineers had a meeting and were like "Hmmm the engine makes too much power even though it can pass reliability, emissions, and fuel economy, lets de-tune it and just make it rev less. No one ever will complain about the power loss" Why doesn't every na engine just rev to 9k? Everyone wants more power, even in commuter cars, and especially in sports cars. You think companies willfully release cars with less hp and its a piece of cake to make the engines "rev higher"? The f20 and f22c were amazing engines, but lived in a different regulatory era.

And you like a s2k, that's very nice, but it isn't like an fd, and nowhere near the 300hp 3000lbs $35k people hypothetically asked for.

The problem w displacement is weight, size, and tq.

Who is this "everyone" that you mention in every post? If everyone wanted anything then the car companies would build it. They would have to because nobody would buy thier stuff otherwise.

You are right about the high RPM 4 cylinder engines though. Emission requirements made further development of the F20, F22c and 2ZZ engines economically unfeasible. The rotary fell victim to the same regulations.

All the companies have dropped the redlines, raised the displacement and started focusing on adding some mid-range torque instead of high RPM horsepower for their "sporty engines". With the proper gearing this can be effective albeit not as exciting as winding out a 8K+ engine. The new MX-5 is a prime example of the new strategy.

[RandomDeception]

Originally Posted by yelsew

You are right that emissions and regulations hold back these types of engines from production, and yes, to achieve these engine speeds, a good bit of extra cost goes into these engines. The one thing that, from my experience, keeps these engines out of our cars is their life expectancy, for many race engines measure their life in hours rather than miles.

Nevertheless, much of that is because how hard those engines are pushed to their limits. I would think that if driven moderately without abusing the revs, they could potentially have a considerably longer life.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Agree, it is not unreasonable at all.



A lighter body is *CHEAPER*, not more expensive! Less materials, less $$$. The 370Z is heavy because it is literally an Infiniti luxury sedan with some length chopped off. Clean-slate smaller/lighter-weight genuine sports car could cost less than the bloated overweight 370Z while offering superior power to weight.

Bring it!

Light/cheap/strong: pick two


There's quite a lot of engineering in the twins to drop weight. Lots of high strength steel was used as it's lighter without losing weight, and not terribly expensive. Aluminum hood was used (also to note, with the Ford F150 going to an aluminum body, we might be seeing it used more, especially where lightness is wanted). Also some odd things like the front wheel liners act as the wheel well as it's half missing to save weight.


The thing that's missing here is that light cars don't ride as nice. Yes, they can still ride nice, but nothing compared to a nice fat GT car... and that's really the clincher here. People willing to pay for the power of a sports car also want it to be comfortable, so instead we get GT cars instead of stripped down sports cars. The only way to really get around this is to market yourself on less is more (Lotus, twins, Miata) and/or go convertible so the noise levels are expected.

Originally Posted by Rampage

Who is this "everyone" that you mention in every post? If everyone wanted anything then the car companies would build it. They would have to because nobody would buy thier stuff otherwise.

You are right about the high RPM 4 cylinder engines though. Emission requirements made further development of the F20, F22c and 2ZZ engines economically unfeasible. The rotary fell victim to the same regulations.

All the companies have dropped the redlines, raised the displacement and started focusing on adding some mid-range torque instead of high RPM horsepower for their "sporty engines". With the proper gearing this can be effective albeit not as exciting as winding out a 8K+ engine. The new MX-5 is a prime example of the new strategy.

Actually, we've been seeing the opposite. Lots of old V6s being replaced with turbocharged 4-cylinders. Any of the larger 4 cylinders are simply out of need to haul around a fatter car as cars have bloated (looking at you Honda).

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Light/cheap/strong: pick two


The thing that's missing here is that light cars don't ride as nice.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

And? It's light, not really cheap anymore, and Miatas have never been considered "strong." It's half the weight of a Challenger, but nearly the same price. Think you're missing the point here...


They also don't ride nice compared to other cars in the price range. In fact, they ride like crap and have to have more body roll than a minivan to try and make them feel "plush."

[RandomDeception]

Originally Posted by Poodles

not really cheap anymore

The base Mazda MX-5 is close to $5000 more expensive than either the Scion FR-S or the Subaru BRZ in the Great White North.

That really makes the less viable for purchasing new. It's also probably the reason why I see so many Mustang convertibles around.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Actually, we've been seeing the opposite. Lots of old V6s being replaced with turbocharged 4-cylinders. Any of the larger 4 cylinders are simply out of need to haul around a fatter car as cars have bloated (looking at you Honda).

Going to turbo 4 is essentially the same thing as raising displacement. You are pumping more air into the cylinders, you lower the RPM and the compression ratio and are rewarded with increased mid-range torque. IMO it just not sounds as good as a small bore engine turning from 8000 to 10,000 rpm. But it does allow them to meet emissions standards.

Some of those old V6 and I6 engines you are talking about them replacing were nice high rpm engines (example: the BMW engines)

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Poodles

And? It's light, not really cheap anymore, and

The new MX-5 is actually cheaper (in inflation adjusted dollars) than the original.

[Hen3ry]

About 1 day to go
You can watch the live unveiling online:
http://insidemazda.mazdausa.com/mazd...s-car-concept/

[vividracing]

Thanks for the link!

-Seth

[Entroper]

It doesn't sound like there is going to be any product announcement at the show. The concept is representing Mazda's heritage rather than a new car they actually want to build and sell.

[STZ]

Originally Posted by Entroper

It doesn't sound like there is going to be any product announcement at the show. The concept is representing Mazda's heritage rather than a new car they actually want to build and sell.

I really hope not. I would love an alternative to the twins, just to have choice.

[ScoobsMcGee]

http://jalopnik.com/mazda-confirms-t...new-1738916061

Well shit.