New Mazda RX Vision concept

[totopo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

It's too late for a car built on an existing luxury platform. You can't "add" light weight.

Those all are or were luxury cars first, "sports" cars second (or not at all IMHO).

Now consider the sports car you could build on the FR-S chassis:
Move the engine, trans, firewall, windshield and front-seaters aft about 20" (losing the back seats), add revs and voila, 240hp 2750 lb. 50/50 sports car, no problemo...

So the money can come with the luxury, but how much is the weight?

...and still 150 tq and a 4 cylinder engine. Nowhere near the 300hp (which is about minimum 250tq if you go with a high reving v6) 3000lbs, $35k everyone wants. Also "add revs" Like it's just a switch subaru failed to throw...

[RandomDeception]

Originally Posted by totopo

So while it is an impressive feat of engineering, I don't think it really proves anything. Its also about as expensive than the twins. (i thought less weight = less metal = cheap)

Huh. I'm guessing that's for prices south of the border?

The base Mazda MX-5 is close to $5000 more expensive than either the Scion FR-S or the Subaru BRZ in Canada.

[WolfpackS2k]

^^Holy crap man, what is so hard to understand about ZDan's last post? I didn't read your long post because I'm fully aware of why a Miata is lightweight. Really not applicable in the way you're trying to use it, since nobody here is asking for a 300 hp 2300 lb car.

[STZ]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^^Holy crap man, what is so hard to understand about ZDan's last post? I didn't read your long post because I'm fully aware of why a Miata is lightweight. Really not applicable in the way you're trying to use it, since nobody here is asking for a 300 hp 2300 lb car.

Besides, it pretty much already exists. It's called the Alfa Romeo 4C.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^^Holy crap man, what is so hard to understand about ZDan's last post? I didn't read your long post because I'm fully aware of why a Miata is lightweight. Really not applicable in the way you're trying to use it, since nobody here is asking for a 300 hp 2300 lb car.

Obviously the core concept, Lana!!!

seriously though, I don't know what you are talking about. If you don't tell me what I have wrong in what I type, then how will I know what you are talking about?

Yes, obviously people aren't asking for a 300hp, 2300lb car, nice strawman.
But what prompted this, is someone wanted a 300hp 2800lb $35k car which I think is completely 100% undoable. I also think 300hp 3000lb $35k is undoable, though maybe more like 95%. Obviously there is some point which it is doable. Someone brought up 250hp, 210tq, 3000lbs, $35k now that may be doable.

There are only so many ways to lose weight. Smaller dimensions, less tq, having the engine on the same side as the driven wheels, expensive materials, less reliability. There are very few cars that are surprising. If mazda manages to make the wankel work again, they are less weight/hp and good for some weight loss.

For example
the alfa 4c: 240hp, 260tq, 2470lbs, so that's good, except it's MR and $55k
Similarly the cayman base: 275hp. 215 tq, 2900lbs, good, MR and $55k bad
Cayman GTS: 340hp, 280tq, 2970lbs, good, MR and $75k bad
Lotus evora: 276 hp, 3056 lbs, good, MR and $68k bad
(the elise can't be sold in the US anymore, probably can't pass crash)

So maybe fr 3000lbs, 300hp, and $50-60k is doable, who knows, probably no market for that car though.

One car that does impress me though, and makes me think it maybe possible, is the corvette.
455 hp. 460tq, 3300lbs, $53k I can see how they sell so many
And the z06: 650hp. 650tq, 3500lbs, $77k

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by totopo

One car that does impress me though, and makes me think it maybe possible, is the corvette.

You missed a car off your list...

FR-S/BRZ + CARB legal turbo/supercharger: ~2,800 lbs, ~240whp (~300 crank hp), ~$26k (new car, base) + ~$6k (FI kit) + $2k for appropriately sized quality wheels and tires = $34k

Edelbrock comes with a warranty if you have a professional install.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You missed a car off your list...

FR-S/BRZ + CARB legal turbo/supercharger: ~2,800 lbs, ~240whp (~300 crank hp), ~$26k (new car, base) + ~$6k (FI kit) + $2k for appropriately sized quality wheels and tires = $34k

Edelbrock comes with a warranty if you have a professional install.

I feel like modified cars are a whole different ballgame and really difficult to compare to OEM cars. Especially because people's values are so different.

Everyone basically agrees that they like power, and they don't like weight.

But when it comes to tuned cars, how reliable do you need it becomes a big factor. How many days can you afford to have it in the garage? how many miles do you want to put on it a year? how many transmissions and axles are you willing to go through? what's the resell price going to be? For some people, (me) with no garage space and who needs a daily driver, none of that is really acceptable. For many many others, those are minor quibbles and not the important thing in a sports car.

If subaru wanted to make an OEM reliable brz with 300crankhp, I think you'd end up at considerably >$35k and probably slightly north of 3000lbs.

If you want to talk about modified cars then the world is your limit. and why go with a new car? just blowing all the warranties and new car reliability away anyways, and I doubt you care about crash and emission standards. It'd be a lot more economical to get a used s2k and slap on a turbo there. Makes a ton more hp, and probably still more reliable. Or turbo miata. OR LS miata. or turbo k20/k24 miata, or turbo mr-s. So many options out there.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by totopo

But when it comes to tuned cars, how reliable do you need it becomes a big factor. How many days can you afford to have it in the garage? how many miles do you want to put on it a year? how many transmissions and axles are you willing to go through? what's the resell price going to be? For some people, (me) with no garage space and who needs a daily driver, none of that is really acceptable. For many many others, those are minor quibbles and not the important thing in a sports car.

Can you point me to an 86 with a CARB legal kit and tune that has had ANY reliability issues that are directly attributed to adding FI (i.e. not present on stock power like broken axles and DI seals)? I've been looking and I seriously can't find any, maybe I'm dumb.

You're not wrong, but I don't think you've done the research to thoroughly dismiss this claim, I'll gladly eat my words as I need an excuse to not drop the money on it.

Resale price won't be any worse than any other reversible modification and the guilt of selling someone a car you thoroughly beat on, which is the way it will be without going FI, no?

just blowing all the warranties and new car reliability away anyways, and I doubt you care about crash and emission standards.

Well the whole point of bringing this up is that you don't compromise safety, emissions, or modern features and the Edelbrock kit comes with a 3yr/36k powertrain warranty (from 0 miles on the odometer and initial purchase date of car so not the greatest but certainly not insubtantial).

Several people with 10's of thousands of miles so far, time will tell if a FI FA20 will hit 60k, but we're still not positive a stock FA20 can hit 60k without issue, I know mine has already burned up 3 coilpacks.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Can you point me to an 86 with a CARB legal kit and tune that has had ANY reliability issues that are directly attributed to adding FI (i.e. not present on stock power like broken axles and DI seals)? I've been looking and I seriously can't find any, maybe I'm dumb.

You're not wrong, but I don't think you've done the research to thoroughly dismiss this claim, I'll gladly eat my words as I need an excuse to not drop the money on it.

Resale price won't be any worse than any other reversible modification and the guilt of selling someone a car you thoroughly beat on, which is the way it will be without going FI, no?



Well the whole point of bringing this up is that you don't compromise safety, emissions, or modern features and the Edelbrock kit comes with a 3yr/36k powertrain warranty (from 0 miles on the odometer and initial purchase date of car so not the greatest but certainly not insubtantial).

Several people with 10's of thousands of miles so far, time will tell if a FI FA20 will hit 60k, but we're still not positive a stock FA20 can hit 60k without issue, I know mine has already burned up 3 coilpacks.

No idea. what does the warranty cover? 36k miles isn't alot. I'd be surprised if the transmission and axle failure rate doesn't go up. Probably only subaru, toyota, and aisin knows what their failure curves would look like.

It might be decent enough, but still doubt it is near OEM level of reliability.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by totopo

No idea. what does the warranty cover? 36k miles isn't alot. I'd be surprised if the transmission and axle failure rate doesn't go up. Probably only subaru, toyota, and aisin knows what their failure curves would look like.

It might be decent enough, but still doubt it is near OEM level of reliability.

Like I said, I've been keeping an eye out, haven't seen a failure yet and many people are claiming tens of thousands of miles, a handful of stock FA20's didn't make it that far.

At the power levels offered on smog legal tunes I haven't seen any transmission failures, CSG and Jackson are even confident that the stock clutch is adequate, and axle failures seem to be more geometry related than power related, not every axle failure had big hp, nearly every big hp axle failure was lowered a significant amount unless I'm remembering incorrectly.

36k isn't much, but I've got more faith in an Edelbrock guarantee at this point than Toyota USA or SOA.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by totopo

So the money can come with the luxury, but how much is the weight?

Not sure I understand the question...

...and still 150 tq and a 4 cylinder engine. Nowhere near the 300hp (which is about minimum 250tq if you go with a high reving v6) 3000lbs, $35k everyone wants.

I'd rather have a 240hp 150 lb-ft 4 cylinder at 2750 lb. than a V6 with 300hp at 3000 lb. Which is why I daily an S2000 I guess...

Also "add revs" Like it's just a switch subaru failed to throw...

It is. But either more revs or more displacement would get you there without adding weight.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Not sure I understand the question...

I'd rather have a 240hp 150 lb-ft 4 cylinder at 2750 lb. than a V6 with 300hp at 3000 lb. Which is why I daily an S2000 I guess...


It is. But either more revs or more displacement would get you there without adding weight.

So I compared the 370z weight to the more expensiveand slightly smaller and similar weights z4 and slk300. You said, the z4 and slk300 are heavier and don't matter because they are luxury cars. I don't think that is the case. I think that the luxury component adds to the price, but not necessarily the weight. Expensive leather and trim isn't really too much heavier than cheap fake leather and trim.

And yes, the s2k is awesome... But it was over $40k and and can't pass modern crash or emissions so it doesn't really count for anything.

Haha, and of course the way to more power on an na engine is to rev higher; the problem is that it isn't easy. Or everyone would just make like f1 engines and rev to 18k. Easy way to double the power output! Do you think the Subaru engineers had a meeting and were like "Hmmm the engine makes too much power even though it can pass reliability, emissions, and fuel economy, lets de-tune it and just make it rev less. No one ever will complain about the power loss" Why doesn't every na engine just rev to 9k? Everyone wants more power, even in commuter cars, and especially in sports cars. You think companies willfully release cars with less hp and its a piece of cake to make the engines "rev higher"? The f20 and f22c were amazing engines, but lived in a different regulatory era.

And you like a s2k, that's very nice, but it isn't like an fd, and nowhere near the 300hp 3000lbs $35k people hypothetically asked for.

The problem w displacement is weight, size, and tq.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by totopo

So I compared the 370z weight to the more expensiveand slightly smaller and similar weights z4 and slk300. You said, the z4 and slk300 are heavier and don't matter because they are luxury cars. I don't think that is the case. I think that the luxury component adds to the price, but not necessarily the weight. Expensive leather and trim isn't really too much heavier than cheap fake leather and trim.

luxury and low nvh most definitely adds weight.

And yes, the s2k is awesome... But it was over $40k and and can't pass modern crash or emissions so it doesn't really count for anything.

S2000 was less than $35k.

And you like a s2k, that's very nice, but it isn't like an fd, and nowhere near the 300hp 3000lbs $35k people hypothetically asked for.

that's not what i'm asking for...

The problem w displacement is weight, size, and tq.

I guess that's why my 6.8 liter RX-7 is so enormous and weighs a whopping 2900 lb... But torque is not a problem :P

[RandomDeception]

Originally Posted by totopo

Haha, and of course the way to more power on an na engine is to rev higher; the problem is that it isn't easy. Or everyone would just make like f1 engines and rev to 18k. Easy way to double the power output! Do you think the Subaru engineers had a meeting and were like "Hmmm the engine makes too much power even though it can pass reliability, emissions, and fuel economy, lets de-tune it and just make it rev less. No one ever will complain about the power loss" Why doesn't every na engine just rev to 9k? Everyone wants more power, even in commuter cars, and especially in sports cars. You think companies willfully release cars with less hp and its a piece of cake to make the engines "rev higher"? The f20 and f22c were amazing engines, but lived in a different regulatory era.

Ah, you make a great point about the reliability, emissions, and fuel economy.

I have often wondered why 4 cylinder race engines that could rev to 10,000 RPM that produce far over 100 horsepower per litre of displacement hardly ever make it to production cars. I used to think it was either the much lower reliability or a significantly higher cost (though that might be mitigated by a large scale production rather than producing in small batches). Now though, I could see how emissions regulations and fuel economy targets might also affect their usage in the real world.

Originally Posted by ZDan

S2000 was less than $35k.

Adjust for inflation though, and then it would be $40,000 and requiring even more costs to meet higher standards for safety amongst other things.