Under Warranty-Dealer Blaming Customer and not paying? Read this

[stevesnj]

Great article and case law showing that not covering warrantied items citing customer abuse is a bad thing for the dealer to do.

http://thegarage.jalopnik.com/dont-l...-wh-1736064825

From the FTC, aftermarket parts "must be proven" to be the cause of a failure.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles...ne-maintenance

[BRZnut]

Thanks for the links. Since the FTC enforces the warrantee laws, it would seem to follow that anyone in this situation should file a complaint against the dealer with the FTC

[Tcoat]

Two points that need to be clear.
Talking about your car on a public forum can destroy your case if you go to court. All those "Bro I ruled the track the last 12 times I went out" posts can come back to haunt you fast. Remember how the first article said they had to prove you "abused" it? Well guess what, you just handed them that proof on a golden platter. This is easy to avoid by simply not saying anything that can be used to tie your car to their case. Don't say I went to Joe Dealership and talked to Fred on June 2nd. These things can be searched and once they have an idea who you are they can track you down and prove it was you. The internet is not as anonymous I people think. Be especially careful with things like Facebook since it already has your real name right there. All those burn out and donuts pictures would kill your case in court.


The second article references aftermarket parts. What it is talking about is using aftermarket parts that are the equivalent to the original. That fancy header or the mega turbo although certainly aftermarket are not covered by that clause. They are modifications not just aftermarket parts and they still give the dealer the ammo to deny your warranty if they can even remotely associate them with the failure.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Two points that need to be clear.
Talking about your car on a public forum can destroy your case if you go to court. All those "Bro I ruled the track the last 12 times I went out" posts can come back to haunt you fast. Remember how the first article said they had to prove you "abused" it? Well guess what, you just handed them that proof on a golden platter. This is easy to avoid by simply not saying anything that can be used to tie your car to their case. Don't say I went to Joe Dealership and talked to Fred on June 2nd. These things can be searched and once they have an idea who you are they can track you down and prove it was you. The internet is not as anonymous I people think. Be especially careful with things like Facebook since it already has your real name right there. All those burn out and donuts pictures would kill your case in court.


The second article references aftermarket parts. What it is talking about is using aftermarket parts that are the equivalent to the original. That fancy header or the mega turbo although certainly aftermarket are not covered by that clause. They are modifications not just aftermarket parts and they still give the dealer the ammo to deny your warranty if they can even remotely associate them with the failure.

This is the big one and often misunderstood... Aftermarket is meant as in replacement/OEM equivalent.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Two points that need to be clear.
Talking about your car on a public forum can destroy your case if you go to court. All those "Bro I ruled the track the last 12 times I went out" posts can come back to haunt you fast. Remember how the first article said they had to prove you "abused" it? Well guess what, you just handed them that proof on a golden platter. This is easy to avoid by simply not saying anything that can be used to tie your car to their case. Don't say I went to Joe Dealership and talked to Fred on June 2nd. These things can be searched and once they have an idea who you are they can track you down and prove it was you. The internet is not as anonymous I people think. Be especially careful with things like Facebook since it already has your real name right there. All those burn out and donuts pictures would kill your case in court.


The second article references aftermarket parts. What it is talking about is using aftermarket parts that are the equivalent to the original. That fancy header or the mega turbo although certainly aftermarket are not covered by that clause. They are modifications not just aftermarket parts and they still give the dealer the ammo to deny your warranty if they can even remotely associate them with the failure.

1) Your first point is hilariously true, there are a lot of cases of people being blamed for tracking the car and wondering how the dealership knew, and its obvious the staff at the dealership just went on the forums and saw track footage

2) Anything cat less or catted pretty much voids the warranty as well and people don't realize that because they aren't equivalent in cell count to the oem cats

But in both cases it's still a burden of proof issue, they have to bring up something like "oh your brake pads are prematurely worn" or the headers are creating extra heat effecting _____ part

[mav1178]

Case law?

This is precisely the problem with a lot of enthusiasts. They readily threaten a lawsuit if something doesn't go their way.

Take this from the article:

So don’t just accept the claim denial if you are faced with one when you have a legitimate warranty claim. If nothing else, talk to a lawyer about your rights and what you might be able to accomplish in court.

I mean... seriously?

"We think your warranty claim isn't valid and we cannot service your car under the factory coverage."

Response #1: What? I want to sue you.
Response #2: What? I have a legitimate claim on a warranty part and I think this other dealer has no problem taking my business.

What is a better resolution to a conflict?

-alex

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Case law?

This is precisely the problem with a lot of enthusiasts. They readily threaten a lawsuit if something doesn't go their way.

Take this from the article:



I mean... seriously?

"We think your warranty claim isn't valid and we cannot service your car under the factory coverage."

Response #1: What? I want to sue you.
Response #2: What? I have a legitimate claim on a warranty part and I think this other dealer has no problem taking my business.

What is a better resolution to a conflict?

-alex

Response #3: What? I have a legitimate claim on a warranty part and I think this other dealer has no problem taking my business, after a lawsuit.

[strat61caster]

Big issue is that what constitutes abuse is not well defined.

Toyota and Subaru both have promotional materials of their sports car on track, they have videos of the cars (in stock trim) doing autox like maneuvers with competitive drivers at the wheel. It's in the advertising as something this vehicle is designed to do well. Should a part of the car fail, and the owner taken their car to the track, is their warranty invalid because they used the vehicle as advertised?

It's so backwards, there are guys who have done thousands of clutch dumps at their monthly local autocross without a peep out of the clutch, still operating optimally, yet the guy who's clutch disc fell apart with just street driving is accused of 'abuse'. The guy who's done a dozen clutch dumps at the autocross and his clutch fails prematurely and is denied because he's got sticky street tires and brake pads, and the guy who rides his clutch during his commute gets a freebie.

The title of the article is "Don't Let The Car Company Falsely Accuse You Of Abuse To Get Out Of Warranty Work"

Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not, it all depends on how jaded the service writer and regional rep are.

[Tcoat]

Was looking at the U.S. warranty to see if it was different and found this:


Informal Dispute Settlement Program
Toyota offers assistance through an informal dispute settlement program called the Dispute Settlement Program. This program is administered by an independent third party: National Center for Dispute Settlement P.O.Box688 Mt.Clemens,MI48046 Further information about this program can be found in this booklet and the Owner’s Warranty Rights Notification booklet.

California residents: Toyota offers you assistance through an informal dispute settlement program called the California Dispute Settlement Program (CDSP).A brochure about the program is found in your glove box. For additional information, call the Toyota Customer Experience Center at(800) 331-4331.You may also contact the CDSP directly at (888)300-6237.Failure to use the CDSP may affect your rights and remedies under California’s “Lemon Laws.”

I do not recall this ever being mentioned once in any of the threads where people were fighting for warranty. They all seem to go right from dealer, to Toyota Service, to lawyer. Why is this process not used?

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I do not recall this ever being mentioned once in any of the threads where people were fighting for warranty. They all seem to go right from dealer, to Toyota Service, to lawyer. Why is this process not used?

Because people go from denial of warranty claim to threatening a lawsuit under the M-M Act, instead of trying to defuse a conflict.

-alex

[Braces]

Sometimes the dealership is not in the loop to decide on a warranty claim. There is a separate individual that works outside of the dealership that decides.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Because people go from denial of warranty claim to threatening a lawsuit under the M-M Act, instead of trying to defuse a conflict.

-alex

What by politely addressing the general manager of the dealership and/or the customer service reps at Scion/Subaru?

And what happens when they ignore you or take forever to offer any real assistance, as they often do?

Many times, a demand letter from an attorney, a lemon-law filing, or a mediation is the only way to have your rights protected as a consumer. I don't mask my affiliations and biases, I am a cynic by nature, and do not trust big business to be honorable or just.

You are often rational and thoughtful in your posts, but your demeanor screams in-house counsel or service rep. supervisor at a corporation.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

What by politely addressing the general manager of the dealership and/or the customer service reps at Scion/Subaru?

And what happens when they ignore you or take forever to offer any real assistance, as they often do?

Many times, a demand letter from an attorney, a lemon-law filing, or a mediation is the only way to have your rights protected as a consumer. I don't mask my affiliations and biases, I am a cynic by nature, and do not trust big business to be honorable or just.

You are often rational and thoughtful in your posts, but your demeanor screams in-house counsel or service rep. supervisor at a corporation.

I think that Mav's point is that the attorney/nasty letter/lemon law threat should be the last resort not the first. It is fine to be cynical but to go into the situation with guns a blazing because you presume that they will fight may just be what causes them to fight in the first place.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

What by politely addressing the general manager of the dealership and/or the customer service reps at Scion/Subaru?

And what happens when they ignore you or take forever to offer any real assistance, as they often do?

Many times, a demand letter from an attorney, a lemon-law filing, or a mediation is the only way to have your rights protected as a consumer. I don't mask my affiliations and biases, I am a cynic by nature, and do not trust big business to be honorable or just.

You are often rational and thoughtful in your posts, but your demeanor screams in-house counsel or service rep. supervisor at a corporation.

You are correct in what you believe.

What I'm saying is, a lawsuit is a last resort option to force the other party to act. If you can reach a resolution without bringing it up, that would be the best.

I don't deal with law nor do I deal with customer service. I do deal with sales, and my number one goal when doing my day-to-day is managing end user expectations.

The way I see it: you set their expectations, you deliver it or exceed it. Then later on, you can say whatever you want to that customer (within reason) and they will take your advice. This breeds loyal, informed customers in the long run and I do less work.

But sure, threaten w/ a lawsuit. See how far that gets you as far as dealers are willing to talk. A lot of companies will instruct employees to shut up once a lawsuit is discussed.

-alex