Is the Scion FR-S a bad deal?

[alluringreality]

The BRZ also has automatic headlights, which is the only item I really want. The BRZ has a different suspension setup, which I don't know if I would want. Personally I'm not going to rush into a purchase and would prefer to wait until I can drive both the BRZ and FR-S in high cross-winds, since that's what I hate about my 2012 Impreza. I'm holding out hope that maybe for 2014 they will realize this is the only car for this price that doesn't have steering wheel controls, Scion will offer all-season tires on the car as reported, or they'll sell a Release Series with better electronics.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

And you and I are not the only ones. My brother also wanted the 86/FR-S when he first saw it. He doesn't like the BRZ styling either. But when he found out the final specs and realized how cheap Scion was, he changed his mind. He said he refuses to buy a Scion now and is looking at the new Genesis Coupe instead (not that I would ever want/recommend one). So I wonder how many sales Scion will lose because of their insistence to not sell a higher trim and more options. Or maybe they will surprise everyone and change soon?

The point of Scion has always been base spec and you modify to your liking. If Scion had all the things available from the BRZ, what is the point of the BRZ?

That is why badge engineering was so bad for GM. The cars overlapped way too much in price and features, so customers were pitting the brands against each other and pitting the ridiculously large dealer network against each other.

By keeping Scion as the low spec, it sets the base price and targets the demographic that is going to want the stripper model to modify. The BRZ gets more grown up looks and more grown up features targeting a slightly different market. The reason they don't offer a la carte options like MINI, for example, is because Toyota and Subaru are probably already losing money on these cars in the US. Our dollar isn't worth shit so one way of reducing cost is to limit options. This means that inventory is much more flexible when it hits the US port and that saves money.

Scion might lose sales, but 75% of those sales will be going to the Subaru dealership instead of deciding they want a V6 Mustang or Genesis. If you choose a car with a completely different character over something as silly as HIDs, you probably weren't that serious about the FR-S in the first place. Scion didn't lose a "certain" sale. They lost a "well, we were in the running" sale. Same goes for someone going with a vastly different car because they don't like the plastic bumper skin on the twin. I'd wager that 95% of the people think that both cars look great and it is just slight preference to one or the other.

[eriktherod]

My dad made a good argument about this when I brought it up the other night. I'm with many of you that I dislike the image that Scion brings to mind for me, and I wish they would have kept the FT-86 as Toyota-branded.

But think about what the Toyota brand is here in the US. In actuality, it's a boring brand.. you have the Camry, Venza, Corolla (nothing special anymore), Solara, Avalon, Sienna, Matrix, and whatever else.

All the 'cool' and 'performance' cars are gone from their lineup. The Corolla is a joke now, no 2000GT, no Celica, no MR2, no Supra. While I don't consider the tC a performance car, it's about the best chance they have other than the top-tier V6 Camry. As much as I shake my head at the tC + TRD supercharger combo, they do have a Scion drifting team and the Scion brand is the 'hip' and 'cool' brand.

Looking at the demographic that most Toyotas here in the US appeal to vs the Scion brand, it was a no-brainer why the FR-S was put where it was. I know, I dislike it and WILL rebadge my FR-S as Toyota, but I do understand why they did it.

[DantKR]

If you're after all the creature comforts and in the 30's range you may as well get a BMW 328i. RWD, small, more power, can get the M package and can get it for around 32k.

[Rob_g]

Originally Posted by alluringreality

The BRZ also has automatic headlights, which is the only item I really want. The BRZ has a different suspension setup, which I don't know if I would want. Personally I'm not going to rush into a purchase and would prefer to wait until I can drive both the BRZ and FR-S in high cross-winds, since that's what I hate about my 2012 Impreza. I'm holding out hope that maybe for 2014 they will realize this is the only car for this price that doesn't have steering wheel controls, Scion will offer all-season tires on the car as reported, or they'll sell a Release Series with better electronics.

The auto headlights I miss having in my FR-S. Not that I need them to turn on automatically, but I'd like them to turn off when I lock the doors. I wonder if maybe there's a dealer programming option we don't know about? I have not finished reading the manual yet. Oh yes, not having steering wheel controls is a BIG minus for me too. If I can add the dual zone climate control for $1000 or less I'm going to do that. Sooner or later someone will make a kit I bet.

Rob

[alluringreality]

Originally Posted by Quentin

Toyota and Subaru are probably already losing money on these cars in the US.

It's highly unlikely that this car costs thousands more to build than an Impreza. The companies are certainly making a profit on each sale.

Our dollar isn't worth shit so one way of reducing cost is to limit options.

I agree that both cars reek of cost cutting. Since there are not many inexpensive low-profile vehicles currently for sale, the cars are still at the top of my shopping list.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by DantKR

If you're after all the creature comforts and in the 30's range you may as well get a BMW 328i. RWD, small, more power, can get the M package and can get it for around 32k.

Not that I would ever buy a 328i, but truecar.com says 34,875 for a 4 door and $37,799 for a 2 dr, and that's without the m stickers. I'd like to see this 32k m sport 328i you speak of.

[DantKR]

Derp, sorry 128i :x

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by DantKR

Derp, sorry 128i :x

It is also 450lbs heavier with only 30 more hp. MSRP is also $34,600 w/ the M package.

I'm sure the upcoming 1 series with the new 2.0T will be a hoot to drive, but god damn, it is ugly.



I'll save my ~$9k and go with an FR-S.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by alluringreality

It's highly unlikely that this car costs thousands more to build than an Impreza. The companies are certainly making a profit on each sale.

Impreza is sold at a much higher volume in the US. They probably build as many Imprezas in 2 or 3 months as the yearly FR-S/BRZ production. I believe that the BRZ/FR-S are built on an Impreza line, right? In that case, the Impreza is likely subsidizing a lot of the assembly cost of the BRZ/FR-S by getting full utilization of the machinery.

Originally Posted by alluringreality

I agree that both cars reek of cost cutting. Since there are not many inexpensive low-profile vehicles currently for sale, the cars are still at the top of my shopping list.

I wouldn't call that cost cutting. It is just a way to reduce the impacts of inventory, lead time, and such to the overall costs of selling a vehicle. (Looking at it from a TPS perspective... you're more likely to match a customer to a car if their only choices are color and transmission, thus you need less inventory to satisfy that customer, less inventory = less cost.)

I thought the vehicle felt completely fine as far as build quality and materials for $25k considering all the nice mechanical bits you get. It isn't soft touch like the GTI, but RWD, 300lbs lighter, LSD, and that sexy shape go a long way to counteract the nicer interior materials.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Quentin

The point of Scion has always been base spec and you modify to your liking. If Scion had all the things available from the BRZ, what is the point of the BRZ?

That is why badge engineering was so bad for GM. The cars overlapped way too much in price and features, so customers were pitting the brands against each other and pitting the ridiculously large dealer network against each other.

By keeping Scion as the low spec, it sets the base price and targets the demographic that is going to want the stripper model to modify. The BRZ gets more grown up looks and more grown up features targeting a slightly different market. The reason they don't offer a la carte options like MINI, for example, is because Toyota and Subaru are probably already losing money on these cars in the US. Our dollar isn't worth shit so one way of reducing cost is to limit options. This means that inventory is much more flexible when it hits the US port and that saves money.

Scion might lose sales, but 75% of those sales will be going to the Subaru dealership instead of deciding they want a V6 Mustang or Genesis. If you choose a car with a completely different character over something as silly as HIDs, you probably weren't that serious about the FR-S in the first place. Scion didn't lose a "certain" sale. They lost a "well, we were in the running" sale. Same goes for someone going with a vastly different car because they don't like the plastic bumper skin on the twin. I'd wager that 95% of the people think that both cars look great and it is just slight preference to one or the other.

Offering options will only make them more money and more customers. They can always offer a cheap base model but the options and higher trims are where the money is at.

Originally Posted by DantKR

If you're after all the creature comforts and in the 30's range you may as well get a BMW 328i. RWD, small, more power, can get the M package and can get it for around 32k.

As I mentioned before, I'm not interested in any other car. It's simply a matter of getting the stuff I want with this car for as cheaply as possible. The BRZ is the better deal but it doesn't meet my styling criteria and I don't prefer the suspension setup and it will be much harder to come by.

[kanundrum]

For the people who want to rip all that out in favor of a track model its more expensive

[Tbomb 25]

I never considered the BRZ....the FRS was the only choice of the 2 to me....its styling inside and out is what i prefer even its neutral balance over the BRZ's more understeer.Even the V6 Mustang the other car im considering it will be the base model with sync and recaro's i dont need disco ball interior colors and silly track apts i prefer cloth to leather.Besides when i look in my garage i want a Toyota sitting next to my Supra not Subie,my wife is in the Army an that $1k rebate definetly helps and the way Scion supports the military we have a 9 year old and she's been to Iraq twice so that means something to both of us.HID's and Steeringweel controls with Sirrus/XM would be nice but the FRS is nearly perfect to me its a very high quality built car in my eyes much more than i ever could have imagined...

[rikdrt1]

i got the FR-S, and probably if the BRZ was more available i would of purchased it.
i had never owned a subie , but i have had good luck with Toyota. in the end, its brand over goodies... hard to say but after driving my new one for 120miles, i have no regrets - there is always something better but the FRS by itself is nice.

the stereo isnt that bad actually, and i did drive the BRZ-Base before and i didnt like the radio on that one - it was actually weaker and when i checked it was something like 190W instead of the scion 330W.... so, tit-for-tat but cant go wrong with either