I totally bought the wrong car

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Mr_Hann

In terms of handling, what's the best handling Toyo product you've experienced, and what made it so?

I honestly can't speak to Toyota handling, every Toyota I've driven is garbage imo (Camry, Corolla, RAV4, Tacoma) except the FR-S and recently I drove an IS300 that was pretty good. Yes I know I have not driven Toyota's best, but I have driven Toyota's most common offerings. Many cars come from the factory and it feels like you're perched on top of a ball, as you lean into the corner you fall off the ball. This 3,400 lb 4-door went 'round an on-ramp almost as flat as an 86 and I fed the throttle in until the front end just barely started to let go. And this car was a beat POS, I wouldn't pay half of what they were asking but I will be searching for a good one. NA 2JZ, double wishbone on all four corners and an LSD optional. Apparently the lead engineer also did the AE86...

Really good handling to me is a car that doesn't fall all over itself in the corners. I don't have any Subaru experience, AWD never appealed to me.

Given that the suspension for the 86 is lifted from Subaru I would not argue that the handling (the big selling point of the car) has it's roots in Subaru. (hah understeer) And I totally understand the sentiment that the car "feels more Subaru" it really should imo.

I do not mean to discount Subaru at all, they are the reason this product is out there at an affordable price, light weight, with excellent handling and I love that it has a boxer engine. All the little detail design work is Subaru, Toyota guidance, Subaru implementation.

[cjd]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your kids'll be fine in the back seat for some time - I've had adults sit normally in the back seat, and have myself climbed back there and am able to sit behind the drivers seat when it's where I usually keep it. At 5'10" I'm probably about as tall as will fit in back, but... talking about booster seats, you've got a few years at least. In fact, it'll probably get easier before it gets worse.

That said, potentially upside-down on a car loan suggests you're stretching - not a problem with that, but ... I don't know how insurance rates compare between the cars, and maybe you can find someone local interested in an ST for racing or ... it's tough, balancing needs and keeping yourself and everyone in the family happy.

Maybe some small tweaks like alignment will help you with the car you have. I know on my ACR that made a world of difference, especially the front negative camber (which helps this car just as much.) Tires can also help a ton (not sure what it comes with.) It's certainly a capable platform though is very different if you're no used to pushing a FWD.

On the topic of power - I still don't get the people that complain about it. This isn't the car, and it is what it is. Use it within its limits, and there's plenty of power. It's like claiming the FRS understeers - good chance that's just driver error, driving beyond what it wants to do. Yeah, more negative camber up front sure helps, but if you don't have it... slow down a little more!

Don't look at me, I've put as much into suspension (and, technically, weight reduction) with basic bolt-on power mods as some say is needed for power alone. I guess a third of my mod budget has been power, 2/3 handling focused. Holy crap, is it fun. Stock probably is too, I never really gave it a chance. But that nagging "something isn't right" is still there, and it's got nothing to do with the car - and the car doesn't fix it (though it's a great distraction.)

C

[g e]

If your life stage is where you are toting babies, in-laws, business associates (more than 1), and lots of big "stuff" at regulR intervals, the BRZ isn't optimal.


You say the GTI is too dear, check out the standard Golf. Four doors and a good driving experience with either.

I love my BRZ but it would not have worked well in my earlier life. Works perfect for me now that I am 60.

[IrishTG]

Originally Posted by cjd

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your kids'll be fine in the back seat for some time - I've had adults sit normally in the back seat, and have myself climbed back there and am able to sit behind the drivers seat when it's where I usually keep it. At 5'10" I'm probably about as tall as will fit in back, but... talking about booster seats, you've got a few years at least. In fact, it'll probably get easier before it gets worse.

That said, potentially upside-down on a car loan suggests you're stretching - not a problem with that, but ... I don't know how insurance rates compare between the cars, and maybe you can find someone local interested in an ST for racing or ... it's tough, balancing needs and keeping yourself and everyone in the family happy.

Maybe some small tweaks like alignment will help you with the car you have. I know on my ACR that made a world of difference, especially the front negative camber (which helps this car just as much.) Tires can also help a ton (not sure what it comes with.) It's certainly a capable platform though is very different if you're no used to pushing a FWD.

I'm really not stressing the back seat too much. My kids will be in the car on occasion and my oldest is big enough/old enough to sit in the front if needed. I would prefer him to be in the back, and 99% of the time he will be, but it is a possibility if absolutely necessary. The youngest fits behind me as well, unfortunately the booster makes it tighter than it needs to be, but it's fine for short trips. In the end, I have no intention of doing family excursions in this car and I just need to be able to fit at least one of the kids so I can take them to one thing on the occasions that my wife has to take the other kid to something else and they happen to be at the same time.

On the loan, I won't go upside down more than $3-4k, and even that isn't something I like doing. I did it getting into the Focus because not having the second car was proving to be tough for situations like what I mentioned above and it would have been a trying process to get positive on my bike before trading. That said, I pay $500 biweekly on a $505/mo payment so I will be positive of negative equity in like 2 more months and positive on depreciation in about 10 from right now. Ultimately I would like to hold off until that time, but I'm afraid that a rumored 2017 refresh and the release of the Focus RS could hurt the trade-in/resale even more so I'm really, really shooting for 6 months. Realistically, I will be about $2-3k upside down in 6-7 months on a decent trade and ~$4-5/k on a lowball trade, so it's all going to depend on the situation at the time. In the end, my car works fine and while I'm not in love with it, I don't hate it enough to get into a craptastic loan so I'm only going to move forward when it works out financially.

I definitely agree that I might be able to increase my feelings toward the ST through mods, but I would rather sink that money into the loan instead of taking a chance on it making me want to keep it long term. I'll kick myself if I drop a few grand into mods only to feel the same when I know I could have just put that money into the loan and traded it that much quicker. Plus, I don't want to take chances on the warranty for a car I 99% won't keep because a voided warranty can seriously hurt me when trading it in.

Originally Posted by g e

If your life stage is where you are toting babies, in-laws, business associates (more than 1), and lots of big "stuff" at regulR intervals, the BRZ isn't optimal.


You say the GTI is too dear, check out the standard Golf. Four doors and a good driving experience with either.

I love my BRZ but it would not have worked well in my earlier life. Works perfect for me now that I am 60.

I wouldn't buy a GTI if it didn't have the performance pack goodies and the regular Golf definitely doesn't have those. Even if the regular Golf is on par with the twins in the power department, it will in no way come close to the driving feel and I would say it wouldn't even match the Focus ST for driving feel. In that scenario, I would honestly just keep the ST.

I'm out of the baby-hauling stage and barring emergencies, all I need is the ability to transport one of my kids. I don't haul other people, or family, pretty much ever and in the times I do, it is still usually only one person. If my wife needs to go off and I, for some reason, have to take both kids on a long trip at the same time where the twins would be less than ideal, she would take my car and I hers. She doesn't like driving sports cars and manuals, but she definitely can and for a single day where the situation calls for it, it's not a problem. If I still had rear-facing car seats and baby gear to carry, I likely wouldn't be even thinking about this move.

[BBYZILA]

I went to a trackday two weekends ago, my friend brough his bone-stock focus st (brand new stock summer high performance tires, eagle f1). He was killing it around the track.

his brakes overheated from the brake based torque vectoring and cheap stock pads/brake fluid, but he was fast. the torque vectoring helped him get around the corners really well, and the turbo was able to push him out of the corners with ease. It was really impressive around a track. And for what it is, a front wheel, 4 door hot hatch that can be had for low $20k, it is truly a marvelous vehicle.

I loved the way my FR-S handled on the track, but I just want to offer some insight on my experience with the ST. Also, I've driven both cars back to back, and the focus st feels significantly faster, thanks to the torque, as op mentioned.

[IrishTG]

Originally Posted by BBYZILA

I went to a trackday two weekends ago, my friend brough his bone-stock focus st (brand new stock summer high performance tires, eagle f1). He was killing it around the track.

his brakes overheated from the brake based torque vectoring and cheap stock pads/brake fluid, but he was fast. the torque vectoring helped him get around the corners really well, and the turbo was able to push him out of the corners with ease. It was really impressive around a track. And for what it is, a front wheel, 4 door hot hatch that can be had for low $20k, it is truly a marvelous vehicle.

I loved the way my FR-S handled on the track, but I just want to offer some insight on my experience with the ST. Also, I've driven both cars back to back, and the focus st feels significantly faster, thanks to the torque, as op mentioned.

I don't doubt the track experience and you're right, the Focus ST is definitely a good handler for a FWD hatch. Of course it's super dependent on the track layout, but I think the gap can be closed with minor work on the twins, however I don't have personal experience there, just speculation based on what I've read. For me, the Focus just doesn't feel the same as the twins I drove, and yes I definitely understand I'm basing this on a couple of test drives, but like I said in my first few posts, it just spoke to me as soon as I hit the first curve. The ST may be faster around many tracks, and even the backroads I frequent, but it doesn't have that same feel, ya know?

The Focus ST definitely pushes you back in the seat more and has the "fast feels", but trust me, it isn't that much faster than the twins when it comes to laying it down when we're talking 0-60 (bleh...) and quarter mile times. That's only half the speed story though, and I readily admit that the twins can't compare when it comes to good ol' "passing power". In the ST you pretty much always have high torque on demand unless you're lugging it in 6th at 35mph and that is nice on the highway, the backroads for getting around the minivan in front of you, and definitely in corner exit if you can manage the torque steer and whatnot. On the other hand, I personally feel that having less power on tap also forces you to be a better driver and drive with more planning and better technique.

All that said, I'm definitely not arguing against he ST's better power, nor am I saying it can't be faster around the track in a lot of cases, but for me it's all about the feels and all the trickery in the ST to make it do what it does as a FWD hatch just doesn't feel the same as a car like the twins. As a point of reference on what I'm looking for, I was also considering one of the new Miatas, but the minimal backseat in the twins is far better than 0 backseat in a Miata so it just isn't a good idea in my situation no matter how fun it is to drive.

[BBYZILA]

Originally Posted by IrishTG

I don't doubt the track experience and you're right, the Focus ST is definitely a good handler for a FWD hatch. Of course it's super dependent on the track layout, but I think the gap can be closed with minor work on the twins, however I don't have personal experience there, just speculation based on what I've read. For me, the Focus just doesn't feel the same as the twins I drove, and yes I definitely understand I'm basing this on a couple of test drives, but like I said in my first few posts, it just spoke to me as soon as I hit the first curve. The ST may be faster around many tracks, and even the backroads I frequent, but it doesn't have that same feel, ya know?

The Focus ST definitely pushes you back in the seat more and has the "fast feels", but trust me, it isn't that much faster than the twins when it comes to laying it down when we're talking 0-60 (bleh...) and quarter mile times. That's only half the speed story though, and I readily admit that the twins can't compare when it comes to good ol' "passing power". In the ST you pretty much always have high torque on demand unless you're lugging it in 6th at 35mph and that is nice on the highway, the backroads for getting around the minivan in front of you, and definitely in corner exit if you can manage the torque steer and whatnot. On the other hand, I personally feel that having less power on tap also forces you to be a better driver and drive with more planning and better technique.

All that said, I'm definitely not arguing against he ST's better power, nor am I saying it can't be faster around the track in a lot of cases, but for me it's all about the feels and all the trickery in the ST to make it do what it does as a FWD hatch just doesn't feel the same as a car like the twins. As a point of reference on what I'm looking for, I was also considering one of the new Miatas, but the minimal backseat in the twins is far better than 0 backseat in a Miata so it just isn't a good idea in my situation no matter how fun it is to drive.

I agree with 100% what you said.

I've actually drag raced my roommmate's ST (stock). I have stock everything except OFH+OFT. He had maybe 1-1.5 car lengths on me.

[JS + BRZ]

It's all about the

[IrishTG]

Took another test drive, this time out of the lot with both kids. Found that it actually worked better to put my bigger kid behind me and my smaller on the passenger side. My 7 year old can sit with his feet planted on the ground and has room above them and a good 5-6 inches between his knees and the back of my seat. When my younger son was over there in his booster seat, his feet dangled too high and he had to position them awkwardly or sit cross-legged, but on the passenger side with the passenger seat where my wife would have it, he had plenty of room. As they grow things will change, of course, but for the short trips I have to occasionally take both of them on it will work fine.

Also managed to make good headway on my ST and I'm now ahead of all negative equity and fees/taxes that were rolled into the original loan. Granted, I still owe roughly sticker so if I trade now it will be at a loss, but I'm getting much closer. If figure I might be able to swing this in the next 3-4 months if everything goes according to plan.

[why?]

why are you so focused on trading the car in? That just seems odd to me. I would be shocked if it would not be just as easy to find someone to give you more than any dealership would offer when you are ready to sell it.

[IrishTG]

Originally Posted by why?

why are you so focused on trading the car in? That just seems odd to me. I would be shocked if it would not be just as easy to find someone to give you more than any dealership would offer when you are ready to sell it.

Simplicity more than anything else. I now owe about $25.5k on it and I'm not going to get that, private sale or not. Best case scenario, with it being an ST1 package w/ low miles, I might get $23.5k if I sold it today, but it could also sit for months and just continue to lose value while I hope someone comes along and makes an offer. Then there is the fact that I'd be selling a financed car and I have to go through getting someone to take over payments, or meet me at the bank with cash in hand to prove I'm actually using their money to pay it off.

Because I want out of this car quickly, I'm losing money no matter how I do it. If I was keeping the car for longer, or was already neutral/positive on the loan, I would absolutely go private sale route, but I want this done in the next 6 months if possible.

In the end, it's all going to depend on how it plays out. If dealers lowball me on trade, I walk and wait, and if that waiting ends up taking longer than I wanted and I am in a better position to sell private, I will sell private. It just all depends.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by IrishTG

Simplicity more than anything else. I now owe about $25.5k on it and I'm not going to get that, private sale or not. Best case scenario, with it being an ST1 package w/ low miles, I might get $23.5k if I sold it today, but it could also sit for months and just continue to lose value while I hope someone comes along and makes an offer. Then there is the fact that I'd be selling a financed car and I have to go through getting someone to take over payments, or meet me at the bank with cash in hand to prove I'm actually using their money to pay it off.

Because I want out of this car quickly, I'm losing money no matter how I do it. If I was keeping the car for longer, or was already neutral/positive on the loan, I would absolutely go private sale route, but I want this done in the next 6 months if possible.

In the end, it's all going to depend on how it plays out. If dealers lowball me on trade, I walk and wait, and if that waiting ends up taking longer than I wanted and I am in a better position to sell private, I will sell private. It just all depends.

I for one understand your plight and going against the flow support your quest.


After a long and happy romance with Mitsubishi we had a falling out and I wanted a divorce. I hated the car so much that I was looking to dump it a month after I got it.


I struggled with it for two years hating it more every single time I got into it. It reached a point where I truly felt like driving it into a wall just to be rid of it. When I stumbled across the FRS (I was not one of the guys waiting through development in eager anticipation and still barely knew they existed in 2014) I knew I was prepared to take the financial hit just for the peace of mind.


Yes I lost about $5K through the process but it was worth every single cent just to once again actually enjoy getting behind the wheel everyday. I have zero regrets and learned my lesson of not just settling for something I don't really want.

[strat61caster]

On your deathbed, what are you going to think?

"gee I wish I had the $5k I would have saved playing it financially conservative instead of buying that sports car"

"Damn I had some good times in that sports car"

Edit: FWIW I did two track days where I spent a fair amount of time next to a Focus ST, we're both amateurs so grain of salt, in 10 sessions I passed him ~6-7 times. He never passed me.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

On your deathbed, what are you going to think?

"gee I wish I had the $5k I would have saved playing it financially conservative instead of buying that sports car"

"Damn I had some good times in that sports car"

Edit: FWIW I did two track days where I spent a fair amount of time next to a Focus ST, we're both amateurs so grain of salt, in 10 sessions I passed him ~6-7 times. He never passed me.

Damnit Strat. I went to hit thanks on your post and accidently hit the Golf Sportswagon ad at the bottom of the page. Now the internet thinks I am interested and will replace all the Get a Russian Bride ads with Volkswagon ones.