So how many have to die before they...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Oh, such youthful optimism. I remember those days.

Hehehe, I've broken my thumb twice (two different places, two different incidents) while racing, tipped my car over on it's side ~4x times.

Been fortunate so far in big boy cars.

[gatorac]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Instructors and organizers need to shut down any safety risks immediately with no fear of kicking out troublemakers. It's going to take a concentrated effort to tighten up the ship of the more lax groups, and like I mentioned earlier, I think a sort of certification/regulatory group funded by all HPDE's can work. And the mechanism for the non-compliant is simple, get the insurance companies on board.

This already happens with many groups. Best practices are already in place. You have the power to vote with your dollars right now and run with the group you feel is safer. More lax groups won't last without paying drivers.

A certification/regulatory group is something being started. However a for profit company doing that will most likely amount to something like the BBB, legalized extortion. Probably worse as they take the hard work of the groups that already use best practices, make them pay for it and then share those with their competitors who are either unwilling or unable to create their own. Next thing you know this company is in a position to charge whatever it wants to "certify" your event. Of course the average consumer will think this is great, just like they believe the BBB is really there for them.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Nope. It's a very different thing entirely with a completely different set of expectations as well as a different acceptance of risk both on and off the track due to the nature of the vehicle.


However... anything's possible.

Incorrect. You are still on a racetrack either way, the expectations remain.

I will gracefully bow out from the nanny state supporters at this time.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Incorrect. You are still on a racetrack either way, the expectations remain.

I will gracefully bow out from the nanny state supporters at this time.

Why?, because critical thinking that's why.

1: A race track does not inherently mean "risk of death" for all those who participate on it nor should it, nor does the magnitudes of risk apply equally to all those who use it. The activity being conducted, the nature of the vehicle being used and the organizational environment dictate the expectation of risk. Insomuch the motorcycle and the car have different realities both on and off the track.

2: Sitting inside a vehicle that weighs 3000lbs and as 4 contact patches of tractive force is different than sitting atop a 600lb vehicle with 2 much smaller contact patches.

3: A passenger in an airplane and a skydiver have different expectations of risk. Both are in the sky, both have to return to the earth but the risk involved each activity is inherently different therefore the expectations are different.

To think that piloting a car carries the same level of risk as piloting a motorcycle (on or off track) is asinine.

[OkieSnuffBox]

When did I ever say a track day meant inherently represented a risk of death? I didn't. Your position in this thread, and even starting, seem to imply that you think there is an inherent risk of death whilst participating in a track day.

3. You don't seem to be terribly clever when it comes to making comparisons. Considering you are now trying to compare skydiving to flying somewhere, that's not even close to the same thing.

I guess perhaps if I was a paratrooper and my flight ended with me jumping out of the plane to reach my destination? Otherwise, you are using faulty logic.


Sure, is there more risk on a motorcycle? Definitely. Buy my point was if you are going on a racetrack to drive quickly you are taking risk just by doing so.

If you aren't comfortable with aforementioned risk, don't do it. Don't try to spoil it for the rest of us.

I'll interject with some hyperbole of my own, I suspect instituting speed limits, enforced braking zones, honerous safety requirements, etc, would kill track days much more quickly than any perceived "insurance issues" or whatever false issue you care to bring up.

Track days are viewed so safely that you can now buy insurance for your vehicle when attending an HPDE in case you damage your car. HINT: Insurance companies don't offer coverage for stuff they are going to lose money on.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Track days are viewed so safely that you can now buy insurance for your vehicle when attending an HPDE in case you damage your car. HINT: Insurance companies don't offer coverage for stuff they are going to lose money on.

Have you looked up the stipulations and costs of that insurance?

Insurance companies offer coverage at a price that they deem is an acceptable risk. Anything can be insured, for the right price.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Have you looked up the stipulations and costs of that insurance?

Insurance companies offer coverage at a price that they deem is an acceptable risk. Anything can be insured, for the right price.

Yes I have. With Lockton Affinity it's damn reasonable. IIRC, it was $150 for a weekend's worth of coverage for a $30k car with a $2500 deductible.


And yes, anything can be insured for a price (ex-claim rep), I should have clarified it was affordable.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Yes I have. With Lockton Affinity it's damn reasonable. IIRC, it was $150 for a weekend's worth of coverage for a $30k car with a $2500 deductible.


And yes, anything can be insured for a price (ex-claim rep), I should have clarified it was affordable.

Oh wow... rates are lower for your venues than where I am then...

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Oh wow... rates are lower for your venues than where I am then...

Everything is more expensive out there!

Out of curiousity, what types of rates were you seeing? Lockton or another company?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by gatorac

This already happens with many groups. Best practices are already in place. You have the power to vote with your dollars right now and run with the group you feel is safer. More lax groups won't last without paying drivers.

A certification/regulatory group is something being started. However a for profit company doing that will most likely amount to something like the BBB, legalized extortion. Probably worse as they take the hard work of the groups that already use best practices, make them pay for it and then share those with their competitors who are either unwilling or unable to create their own. Next thing you know this company is in a position to charge whatever it wants to "certify" your event. Of course the average consumer will think this is great, just like they believe the BBB is really there for them.

100% in agreement and I already am voting with my dollars.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Oh wow... rates are lower for your venues than where I am then...

I've got a buddy who saying he just paid $175 for $30k coverage on a Mustang GT at Thunder Hill this weekend. I just priced out my Scion at $145 for two drivers @$20k. Looks like they take into account the event organizer for rates, but with a 10% deductible it's not meant for fender benders but more like total losses and I can't tell if they'll cover something like a blown engine... Lockton Motorsports btw.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Yes I have. With Lockton Affinity it's damn reasonable. IIRC, it was $150 for a weekend's worth of coverage for a $30k car with a $2500 deductible.


And yes, anything can be insured for a price (ex-claim rep), I should have clarified it was affordable.

I pay about the same (just slightly more) with a smaller deductible ($2000) for the same amount of coverage with ontrackinsurance.com. That's with their multiple event discount rate.

But I paid more than triple that with a Canadian company for the track weekend I did up in Quebec in August. If I had to pay that for all of my events, I'd probably have to rethink a few things.

And once you start doing TT, they won't cover you anymore.

That said, and just to be clear for everybody's benefit, it's strictly coverage for vehicle damage and towing. It doesn't cover any kind of personal liability, injury, damage to other vehicles or damage to the course.

[ZionsWrath]

Should there be stricter rules for the driver? Maybe there should be more stringent rules for organizations and instructors.

Maybe organizations should actually kick people out for bad behaviour or actually give warnings? I've never seen anyone booted or "officially" warned. I got yelled at by an instructor once for "following too close" when his student wasn't giving point by for more than half a lap.

I think they are afraid to lose money and participants by enforcing strict rules?

In group 2 they give us a check out ride at start of event. The instructor I got is telling me to brake and lift hundreds of feet before even close to necessary. And that's starting on first lap before I'm even getting up to speed. Maybe he had a bad experience?

I understand instructors are taking risk but there has to be a give and take. First and foremost I don't think someone should be instructing if they are not comfortable with the risk. There should also be much more weight added to instructor input. They should be able to tell a driver "stop the car you are not safe" and make them sit out a session or something along those lines. Maybe the drivers would then also give them more respect and realize they are doing something wrong.

What about mandated traction control? I've been with Audi club and the first 2 groups they require aids full on. Maybe they should require new people to have AIDS OFF??? Then they can enforce their 2 off, 4 off, spin rules, etc. for unsafe drivers. It would be very clear the persons ability when the aids are off.

Just some thoughts and ideas. And I really think the above idea is good. But I'm far from an instructor so maybe not.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Everything is more expensive out there!

Out of curiousity, what types of rates were you seeing? Lockton or another company?

It varies by the organization and track, but I was seeing closer to 250-300 per weekend with a 35k declared value, also through Lockton.

Weekend and single day prices were the same for those that are reading the posts.

[Sleepless]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Should there be stricter rules for the driver? Maybe there should be more stringent rules for organizations and instructors.

Maybe organizations should actually kick people out for bad behaviour or actually give warnings? I've never seen anyone booted or "officially" warned.

I've seen plenty of people get booted. Just depends on the group.

Unfortunately, you have to actually run with a group to really get an idea if they are run in a way you like. Sometimes you get wind of a group's reputation ahead of time, but it's hard to take other people's opinions too seriously since we all have different levels of acceptance.

But, pretty much all the west coast groups are quite good at booting people.