BRZ/FR-S Vs. Civic SI

[Sully]

Originally Posted by Boogs

Having driven an 8thgen Si (stock) for my daily commute from the curvy roads of the hill-country to and through the crowded city streets for 3 years, I can say that I can't wait to drive the BRZ instead. Driving a RWD, low CoG, similiar engine out-put performing, beautiful (unlike the 8thgen's ginger step-child-like appearance(imo)) sports car around all those curvy country roads will be joyous. I can't wait to sell the Si and get the BRZ. I'm super psyched for this car.

Oh God, I'm dying to get a toyaburu out in the hill country.

[NeoDiNardo]

To me the BRZ represents what the 9th gen Civic SI should have been. The 8th gen SI was a fun car to drive, the RSX reincarnated, but no way would I get a 9th gen SI over the BRZ.

The BRZ seems like a step forward, the SI seems like a step back, or a side step beaten with an ugly stick. Vs the 8th gen SI, 20% more torque is the only better thing on the 9th gen SI.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

a FWD car, for instance, could be setup to do tight auto-cross or gymkhana really well.

Though I personally have opted not to suffer with FWD anymore, it can still be fun and I've defended it many times against those that say it can't compete. I've even cited that same video to illustrate the point. However, I've included the caveat: the original mini had an 80" wheelbase and weighed ~1400 pounds (never mind that the mini in that video is far from stock).

Anyway, someone at NASIOC asked for this and since it seems relevant, here's a combined plot for the K20Z3 and FA20 (different dynos and conditions, so FWIW):

[serialk11r]

Thanks for the graph Deslock!
Wow somehow it never occurred to me that the K20 had low specific torque hmm.
The slightly shorter gearing on the Civic probably makes the acceleration about equal.

I am starting to suspect that the low rpm "torque peak" depends on the fuel quality since that is likely a very knock prone range.

[Sasquachulator]

i find it pretty interesting that they make pretty much the exact same power during the FA20's torque dip (just before the 3800rpm mark)

[ngabdala]

I'm going to miss my 2011 Civic Si. The feeling and sound when the Vtech opens at 5800rpm is awesome. It feels like you're going so much faster than a car like the EVO X or 2011 STI I test drove.

I felt so connected with the civic si and the other two were nothing compared to the feel, adrenaline, and the smoothness and ease of shifting.

I'm afraid I'm going to lose that going with a BRZ and living in Massachusetts we get a few blizzards in the winter. I'm trying to trust that I'll be find driving rwd with some blizzaks, a couple bags of kitty litter, shovel, some protein bars in the trunk, and driving cautiously.

I've never driven a rwd car so I've been watching alot of youtube videos of them learning some basics but nothing compares to first hand experience.

[Lasse]

Originally Posted by ngabdala

I'm going to miss my 2011 Civic Si. The feeling and sound when the Vtech opens at 5800rpm is awesome. It feels like you're going so much faster than a car like the EVO X or 2011 STI I test drove.

I felt so connected with the civic si and the other two were nothing compared to the feel, adrenaline, and the smoothness and ease of shifting.

I'm afraid I'm going to lose that going with a BRZ and living in Massachusetts we get a few blizzards in the winter. I'm trying to trust that I'll be find driving rwd with some blizzaks, a couple bags of kitty litter, shovel, some protein bars in the trunk, and driving cautiously.

I've never driven a rwd car so I've been watching alot of youtube videos of them learning some basics but nothing compares to first hand experience.

RWD isn't bad in winter. You should use proper winter tyres and learn your car behaviour. Going sideways is fun in winter, and you can safely do it when you master it. Just don't make overkill, ie too much speed or too steep angles and so on. I changed from RWD to FWD last year and i still miss the possibility to control the car with gas pedal. If FWD car understeer in icy curve or turn, you can't do practically anything...

[ngabdala]

Originally Posted by Lasse

RWD isn't bad in winter. You should use proper winter tyres and learn your car behaviour. Going sideways is fun in winter, and you can safely do it when you master it. Just don't make overkill, ie too much speed or too steep angles and so on. I changed from RWD to FWD last year and i still miss the possibility to control the car with gas pedal. If FWD car understeer in icy curve or turn, you can't do practically anything...

Nice I'm going to an auto show later today and they will have the BRZ. Hope I don't feel too big for the car. I know I'll fit at 6'2" I'm not used to a low riding car and not sure how close the door will be to my left arm.

On my Si the e brake digs into my right leg.

[eriktherod]

Originally Posted by ngabdala

I'm going to miss my 2011 Civic Si. The feeling and sound when the Vtech opens at 5800rpm is awesome. It feels like you're going so much faster than a car like the EVO X or 2011 STI I test drove.

I felt so connected with the civic si and the other two were nothing compared to the feel, adrenaline, and the smoothness and ease of shifting.

I'm afraid I'm going to lose that going with a BRZ and living in Massachusetts we get a few blizzards in the winter. I'm trying to trust that I'll be find driving rwd with some blizzaks, a couple bags of kitty litter, shovel, some protein bars in the trunk, and driving cautiously.

I've never driven a rwd car so I've been watching alot of youtube videos of them learning some basics but nothing compares to first hand experience.

Going to miss my '08 Si as well, only a couple more days with her before the FR-S. I don't remember what it's like to drive a stock one anymore, but I can tell you with bolt-ons and a reflash, it's definitely a whole different animal. VTEC starting at 4K is pretty fun. Though I never dyno'd it, I'd estimate it's up to 250hp and 160tq with everything now.

Anyways, I'm really excited to replace it with the FR-S, just because I've craving a RWD car for the longest time.

[shaX 07]

This shouldn't even be a comparison. The Civic Si doesn't hold a candle to an FR-S/BRZ. I am currently selling my 07 Civic Si sedan and I must say that this was one of the worst car decisions I have made.

Though fairly quick in 1st/2nd gear, the car is gutless everywhere else. The interior layout feels like a Space capsule. The shifter isn't smooth as people give these cars credit for (I guess for some people it is, but these cars have Known, widespread transmission problems).

This has also been the most unreliable car I have ever owned (this is compared with Chevy Cavaliers, RSXs, SRT-4, SVT Contour, etc.)

at about 45k miles my VSA Modulator went bad (controls the VSA system, part is roughly $800 from dealer, 2-3 hours labor). At the same time I also lost a wheel speed sensor. I just got it back from being fixed again, this time it was some sort of o2 sensor I believe that was went bad and was causing a check engine light.

There were some other minor things that went wrong, but the point being is that i've owned this car for maybe, 1 year and a half and have put a good $1,200 into repairs (bought it with only 37k miles) and it only has 63k on it now.

If anybody is considering a Civic Si over an FR-S or BRZ, you need to wake up and come back to reality.

[eriktherod]

Ouch, I'd have been mad too with all that repair work. As far as reliability is concerned, I thought the Si was a pretty decent car all around. The issues typically discussed were the 3rd gear grind and rough shifts from 1->2. Stiff motor mounts fixed that problem for me, though I agree it shouldn't be a requirement.

I did have some clutch fingers break at ~50K miles but the dealership replaced the entire clutch and first three gears under warranty for me.

As for the power... trying to remember it stock and I'd probably agree. The issue was that 6k rpm was hard to get in later gears, and that's where it started to take off. Moving VTEC down to 4k and you'd go through gears much quicker, that and letting the car breathe with some good bolt-ons.

But yeah, stock for stock, the FR-S is a purpose-built car and engineered to do what it does from the ground up. The Si is just a higher performance trim level. Not to discredit the K20 motor, it's a beautiful thing, but it is tied down quite a bit stock and the I think the Si's chassis isn't the greatest.

[YukiHachiRoku]

Originally Posted by shaX 07

This shouldn't even be a comparison. The Civic Si doesn't hold a candle to an FR-S/BRZ. I am currently selling my 07 Civic Si sedan and I must say that this was one of the worst car decisions I have made.

Though fairly quick in 1st/2nd gear, the car is gutless everywhere else. The interior layout feels like a Space capsule. The shifter isn't smooth as people give these cars credit for (I guess for some people it is, but these cars have Known, widespread transmission problems).

This has also been the most unreliable car I have ever owned (this is compared with Chevy Cavaliers, RSXs, SRT-4, SVT Contour, etc.)

at about 45k miles my VSA Modulator went bad (controls the VSA system, part is roughly $800 from dealer, 2-3 hours labor). At the same time I also lost a wheel speed sensor. I just got it back from being fixed again, this time it was some sort of o2 sensor I believe that was went bad and was causing a check engine light.

There were some other minor things that went wrong, but the point being is that i've owned this car for maybe, 1 year and a half and have put a good $1,200 into repairs (bought it with only 37k miles) and it only has 63k on it now.

If anybody is considering a Civic Si over an FR-S or BRZ, you need to wake up and come back to reality.

wow, my dad had an 07 Si, and never had any of these problems, I wonder if you had a lemon? But yet again, I always wonder what happened to the real Honda? The new company philosophy would have Soichiro rolling in his grave. I was always happy with my 2000 Flamenco Black Si back in the day.

[Primo86]

I had a 7th gen celica which is one of the better FWD cars ever made... it was awesome... shit on any eco-box looking civic... i would always say " my celica has the engine in a Lotus" true. Awesome motor...now that i have sold it i can speak rationally. It was the best looking FWD car, hands down. Who cares about any of that?? Its still FWD, eco-based, and boring compared to a RWD, porshe Cayman - balanced, light weight, true driver's car.
Who cares about vtec... who cares about FWD... hondas are boring anyway...name one car honda makes that compares to supras, mr2, all-trac celica, etc. Dont say NSX because thats acura.
Lets call it a day.

[Max Schnell]

Originally Posted by Primo86

I had a 7th gen celica which is one of the better FWD cars ever made... it was awesome... shit on any eco-box looking civic... i would always say " my celica has the engine in a Lotus" true. Awesome motor...now that i have sold it i can speak rationally. It was the best looking FWD car, hands down. Who cares about any of that?? Its still FWD, eco-based, and boring compared to a RWD, porshe Cayman - balanced, light weight, true driver's car.
Who cares about vtec... who cares about FWD... hondas are boring anyway...name one car honda makes that compares to supras, mr2, all-trac celica, etc. Dont say NSX because thats acura.
Lets call it a day.

Hm...lets see....S2k...and NSX is a honda, Acura is a badge created for us badge whores in the US.

I would take a true NSX-R over most other competitors of its day.

Everyone should care about Vtec because it was introduced in 1989 and paved the way for mass produced motors having many other variations and competing designs from other companies we see today.