So how many have to die before they...

[Thorpedo]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Oops. Missed this. I think we watched the same vid.

Yep, it's a shame really. The instructor's lack of balls was putting the driver's, everyone in the cars around him, and his own safety in jeopardy.

(That was horribly written, but I think you get the point. I'm on my cell and I'm too lazy to fix it)

[juliog]

In Spain, you can't go buy a 1000cc bike with a fresh drivers license. You need a motorcycle drivers license. Then, you need to drive a lower displacement bike for a couple years, then take another riding test, then you can finally buy the liter bike. Why is not the same for cars?

Mandatory HPDE+Autox in a Miata before you're allowed to buy a 400HP+ car. Problem solved! :P

Oh wait, this wouldn't work because every other car in 'Murica these days has over 400HP, from trucks to SUVs, not to mention the kids with chipped turbo grocery getters. Any car that takes more than 5 sec 0-60 is considered 'slow'..

Maybe we can raise taxes on gas so everybody buys econoboxes, then use those taxes to build more race tracks and subsidize track days

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

A few months ago someone posted a video of a random agro noob vette driver acting like a total asshat on the track. More than the driver's behavior, I became especially disturbed by the instructor's complete lack of control over the situation.

I think the conclusion was that the right seat dude was not an instructor. Rather he was the Corvette asshole's friend.

Here's another perspective on the topic from Road and Track this week.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...ck-day-safety/

I haven't seen the data, although it has been discussed, but would really want to know how many deaths/mile occur at track days versus on the street. If the risk isn't substantially higher (it wouldn't surprise me if it was not), is this conversation really relevant?

In two years of doing this (about 35 days at this point) I have not seen a single incident-related injury at the track. I've only seen 5 cars that couldn't be driven home because of an incident. I'm not trying to take anything away from the tragedies that have happened at various tracks these past few years, but I wonder if the data set is sufficient to conclude that this is really a problem compared to the past. Yes, one death is too many. But even with speed limits, if the car in front of you drops oil in the braking zone at the end of a straight, there are going to be problems.

If you require cages, you basically eliminate entry to the sport for all but the most well funded enthusiasts. I don't think that's the answer. I know very experienced instructors (30 years in the hobby) that don't drive caged cars. And they let their kids do the same.

Note, I am about as risk averse as you can get. I'm working through convincing myself to do a half-cage for next year.

[DarkSunrise]

I think the ideal solution is for driving schools to have full track-prepped NA/NB Miatas riding on all-season tires for novice groups (TC/VSC off). Once novices have built up some car control skills at lower speeds and move up to intermediate, they're allowed to drive their own cars, but with nannies in "sport" and instructors riding shotgun.

When they've been signed off for solo, they can do whatever their darwinian instincts prompt. That way they're free to push the limits, but only endanger themselves mostly.

That said, I don't think this solution works for practical reasons, namely cost.

One thing clubs can do immediately is do a better job enforcing track rules. Small stuff like passing without pointby (when required), not allowing faster traffic to pass, etc. can be easily resolved.

[Ultramaroon]

I'll take it one better. Well, maybe not better but apropos, at least. I've recently discovered karting through friends I've made on this forum.

It's a hoot and, taken seriously, an inexpensive way to build relevant skill, IMHO.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

If anything absolutely should be done it should be a Hans devise mandate.

Then you need a HANS capable helmet, harnesses, roll-bar, fixed back seat.

You're talking THOUSANDS of dollars in safety equipment that most people won't do and will just stop going out.

I agree with the earlier poster, it's 100% on the organizers/instructors.


I remember a track day a few years ago, after the first session of the day, we went and grabbed the head instructor to tell him about this guy in an Ariel Atom clone. Told him that he HAD to watch what he was doing on track.

The instructor drove his car the next two sessions just to show him basic etiquette.

[Rio]

Horsepower is not killing people, the car doesn't kill people, the track doesn't kill people... what we need is better ways to measure the abilities of the drivers before we let them go "solo" on a track. 99.9% of these deaths are caused by driver error. Whether it's another driver or the deceased driver is really irrelevant. A mistake was made and led to an accident and possibly death. No one should be allowed to open it up in their car on their first time on the track. I actually think that Track Night America and many other car clubs should change their rules for Novices. If you have not driven on a track before you MUST have an instructor in the vehicle with you and you must follow a specific informal curriculum of safety and driving skills knowledge. Once the minimum requirements are met then you can move up to the next class and drive alone. My day job is corporate learning strategy and this is what we do to develop high performing individuals and minimize corporate risks. This is similar to what some racing clubs already do also. So why not do the same in recreational motorsports?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by MaximeT

I really don't know how you guys can be instructors. That looks like a very uncomfortable and dangerous job.

Spending 4 laps every 6 months in the passenger seat of friends is enough for me.

I can't imagine teaching strangers.

I'm glad I only teach SimRacing.

And people wonder why real driving/racing schools are so expensive...

[rice_classic]

A few points:

• Barriers to entry can affect participation but I posit it will not. It didn't happen when safety limits were imposed on drag racers years ago and it won't here. This is a drug, an addiction, a way of life for some and people are literally killing themselves (or willing to accept that risk) while enjoying it. Requiring a rollbar or a cage or a HANS isn't going to "kill the sport".
• I also oppose the speed limit. I don't want fun limited, I want safety increased.
• Bearing/hub/tire/brake/brain failure doesn't discriminate.. It cares not who's behind the wheel. Physics applies to all things (and all drivers) in a very predictable manner.
• Is this really a problem? As an instructor, to me it's definitely a problem. But it's happening too often and it's discussed more and more 'as a problem' so it appears so.
• Track safety is important but only so much can be done and even then, it isn't comprehensive enough a solution. Track owners should be doing what they can eliminate areas of excessive danger and improve safety, absolutely, but elements of danger will always persist and the laws of physics will always apply. The low-hanging fruit is addressing the drivers or the cars or both.
• Safety is too expensive?? There's 2 problems here 1) the relative cost of safety compared to cost of the activity when considering the benefit of the safety and 2) the alternative which is the cost associated with our lovely 'Murican shit-show we call a medical system.

1) If someone spends 25-100k on a car, $800-2000 tires, plus god knows how much on wings, diffusers, turbos etc etc and then complains about the cost of a roll bar or a helmet or a HANS device?. It won't break my heart if that person finds another hobby.
2) Just did a quick trip to the ER for 1 CT scan and 1 Xray (because of wreck). Total bill: $11,000, I shit you not. Lesson: if you think safety is expensive, try a visit to a hospital. Playing with cars at racetracks is expensive. Playing with our medical system is magnitudes of order more so.


I don't know what the right solution is but I do like a sliding scale of safety until I see another solution presented that is better.



Maybe power?

0-200 no bar or cage,

200-300 Roll bar with 5pt and hans,

300+ full cage, 5pt and hans.

Hmm, what about something super light with 200hp? That could be very dangerous too. Hmm...



Maybe power to weight?

18:1 or worse no bar/cage,

17.9:1 or better: rollbar,5pt,HANS and

13.9:1 or better then full cage etc etc.



Maybe Treadware or tire size? This could greatly reduce cornering/entry speeds. Same thing with TW and/or size, apply the same sliding scale.

[rice_classic]

Now I've been watching youtube crash videos thanks to this... Some fun, some not.



And sometimes it's more fun just to watch youtube.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7dG9UlzeFM[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcnXsfUiCDY[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkn37BDvTw[/ame]


And this forum's own Element Tuning going around at 148MPH.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LnmD7kxHUw[/ame]

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Alan

Note, I am about as risk averse as you can get. I'm working through convincing myself to do a half-cage for next year.

Good article btw about Krause.

This is a recent article that actually makes a good case for the speed limits.

This one here that's quite recent that's an interview by Jack Baruth is worth a read: http://www.motorsport-safety.org/med...its-track-days


If you want to increase your safety at the track without increasing your safety equipment you should do 2 things to self limit: A) ditch the sticky tires and put on all-seasons and B) limit your own straight line speed.

The speed limiting means you're not ending the braking zone at the end of the straight at insane speed and the all-seasons means you cannot go through the corners at nearly the speed of something like an RS3 or RC1. Plus lower grip will make you a better driver.

Still recommend that rollbar though.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

A) ditch the sticky tires and put on all-seasons and B) limit your own straight line speed.

100% agree. Less is more when it comes to training wheels. And you don't have to be going 200 MPH to learn how to brake properly.

We're not out there to race. We're out there to learn.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

A few points:

[LIST][*]Barriers to entry can affect participation but I posit it will not. It didn't happen when safety limits were imposed on drag racers years ago and it won't here. This is a drug, an addiction, a way of life for some and people are literally killing themselves (or willing to accept that risk) while enjoying it. Requiring a rollbar or a cage or a HANS isn't going to "kill the sport".
...
1) If someone spends 25-100k on a car, $800-2000 tires, plus god knows how much on wings, diffusers, turbos etc etc and then complains about the cost of a roll bar or a helmet or a HANS device?. It won't break my heart if that person finds another hobby..

Either I have a serious misconception about how this works or you're glazing over the true cost. Perhaps you can clear this up because maybe I'm wrong. From my understanding, if I were to put either a full cage (or at least half a cage) in my car, along with a proper racing seat and 6 point harness, in the interest of safety, and under the assumption that I would also be using a HANS device, I should also eliminate the airbag(s). And if I have a cage and six point harness and no airbag, I now have a car which is not going to be DOT legal (and potentially dangerous to drive on the road without said helmet/Hans). Correct? So at this point, we're not just talking $4,000~$10,000 for the conversion, depending on the car, we're talking about taking a DOT legal car and now making it a non DOT legal car which can no longer be driven to and from the track. Or am I wrong? And IF I'm wrong I would really like to be corrected because this is exactly the struggle I'm going through right now, weighing the cost vs the risk and really wondering if it's worth it to continue.

This season, I've been as far south as VIR (Virginia/North Carolina border) and as far north as Mont Tremblant (Quebec Canada). Again, that's all fine if you want to invest in the cost and expense of a trailer. And a vehicle that can pull that trailer. Granted it's a fixed cost for something that's (potentially) going to last you a while. And sure you can buy both second hand and you can probably find bargains out there. But if I'm going to be putting several thousand miles on both during a season, and suffering the abuse from North East winters in the off-season, I want something that's in good condition and reliable (more so the vehicle pulling the trailer than the trailer itself). I made some rough calculations for my own situation and if I include the cost of a full cage conversion and stripping of my car, I was sitting on a number of around $25K~$35K when I was done. Basically more than I paid for the FRS brand new. Granted, if I had known at the time that I was going to get hooked into this, it might have been cheaper just to buy a used track car and trailer from the get go. But aside from doing a few events 15 years ago, I hadn't put a wheel on the track in all that time and I would have thought it looney to go and spend that money on a track car when I was only looking for a fun car for the weekends. I bought the FR-S and after a month or two, thought to myself, this would be a great car to take up to Lime Rock and run a track day. And one thing just led to another.

Anyway, just an interesting point, in the Audi video you linked, I don't believe this car had any additional safety equipment other than what comes standard in the car and the driver walked away without any serious injury. If the Audi had been in the same situation as the Time Attack STi at VIR I doubt we could say the same. But there's also no way the Audi would be doing 148 mph at the start of the Climbing Esses. And in the 120 mph and 100 mph frontal impact videos, I doubt a roll cage would have made any difference.

Look, I'm not trying to dispute the inherent safety of what we've learned after 60+ years of racing street converted cars. I'm just saying that there isn't much control data out there to compare modern cars with modern safety equipment vs say, a 25 year old converted track car. And, unless I'm completely off base with my assumptions, I think you're seriously underestimating the real world cost of the kind of equipment you're proposing. I'm sitting on the fence right now. I'm feeling more comfortable, more confident. But do I really want to move up to D3 where things start happening a lot faster. Where the risks are potentially greater. And do I really want to spend that kind of money on my car and hobby. Can I even afford to? Can I afford NOT to. I don't have any particular desire to start racing with NASA. And the thought of doing TT is kind of appealing. But I know I would be pushing myself to go faster and faster and that's probably just as dangerous. So will I just sit in HPDE and move up the ladder? I really don't know but these are all questions on my mind. If it was just a matter of spending a few thousand dollars on some 'bolt on' safety equipment, I would do it tomorrow.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Not that it adds THAT much more, but keep in mind, if you have a fixed back seat and harnesses, do it for the passenger side as well. Most, if not all, instructors won't get into a car that doesn't provide the same of level of safety for them.