Do Lightweight Pulleys FREE Power? With Poll

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by why?

If you think one isn't worth much then the other isn't either.

As someone who has had a 3 piece NST pulley kit, a lightweight flywheel and super light weight wheels on my Yaris for over 5 years, the change is dramatic in how fast the car revs, and because I am a gas mileage freak I get better gas mileage as well.

Now could a boxer be different? Of course, but if the stock engine can take all sorts of forced induction, then a pulley kit is not a big deal. I will say the NST pulleys are much more expensive than what is stock, and that is the main reason they would never do something like that oem.

Except one is SFI rated and is an actual damper while the other one is a hunk of turned aluminum...

[NonStopTuning]

Originally Posted by why?

If you think one isn't worth much then the other isn't either.

As someone who has had a 3 piece NST pulley kit, a lightweight flywheel and super light weight wheels on my Yaris for over 5 years, the change is dramatic in how fast the car revs, and because I am a gas mileage freak I get better gas mileage as well.

Now could a boxer be different? Of course, but if the stock engine can take all sorts of forced induction, then a pulley kit is not a big deal. I will say the NST pulleys are much more expensive than what is stock, and that is the main reason they would never do something like that oem.

Thank you for providing some real world feedback on a real car. Five years is a legitimate sample size.

Best of luck with all your projects moving forward.

[NonStopTuning]

ON THE TOPIC OF VIBRATIONS, HARMONICS, AND SAFETY

This one deserves an entire book, but here goes...

QUESTION: Will NST Pulleys lead to premature engine failure?

I cover this topic several times a month but I don't mind, I understand that your cars are a very large investment for all of you and I prefer that you be intelligent and informed about all your modifications. So here we go again... Please take a few minutes to read everything I have posted here, as I worked hard on trying to give you a good explanation on the topic...

In the past many engines were externally balanced. There was an external balancer attached to the outside of the engine, on the crank snout, used to balance the engine externally. The crank pulley in such engines would then be attached to this balancer. Removal of this balancer is a bad idea. These balancers were most often used on large V shaped engines of the domestic muscle car era.

Take a look at any modern (1980s and beyond) Honda, Toyota, Nissan, or other Japanese engine and you will find no such balancer. These engines are all internally balanced, and this process has improved even further since the late 1990s. So the topic of a BALANCER does not apply here.

What you will find on many modern engines is a harmonic damper. This is a small rubber band, litterally less than 2mm, less than 1/8th of an inch, thick that is built into the crank pulley. OEM crank pulleys are often called DAMPERS. Try placing an order for a crank pulley at your dealer and your invoice will read damper. This rubber is used to absorb something called NVH, noise/vibration/harshness. In addition, the rubber is in part designed to help the inherent balancing flaws in a cast iron pulley. Suffice it to say, this rubber is actually not very good at performing its intended purpose after as little as a few thousand miles. What happens to rubber after a couple years of humidity, weather, snow, rain, etc? It often becomes brittle, hard, and crunchy. Can something with these properties actually absorb vibrations very well? What happens when the cast iron pulley begins to crack and chip with age? Will the balance of this pulley get better or worse with age?

NST Pulleys are CNC machined T6 aluminum pieces and are anodized for extra strength and durability. These CNC pieces are zero balanced from day one, do not have the inherent flaws of cast iron pieces, and do not require extra damping properties of rubber.

NST customers have consistently reported smoother running engines with NST pulleys vs OEM, especially at idle. How is this possible if the rubber in the OEM pulley is such a vital and super important piece? Perhaps the rubber is not as important as it is cracked up to be?

On a relatively near stock motor with bolt-on mods or low amounts of boost like what most of the people on this forum probably run, a solid pulley will not have any life threatening consequences.

The engineering reasons are that most modern engines have a short, strong crank with, a relatively high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area above 10,000 rpm. Even the stock damper is not tuned for attenuation at this sort of rpm so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.

Now weak engines that are pushing the limit with LOTS of revs, wimpy cranks, super long strokes, lots of boost and dwelling in the upper rpm ranges for long periods of time can benefit from a damper designed to deal with this sort of operation but our engine is not like this, and probably very few people with this motor on this forum push the envelope that hard. How many 500HP, 12,000RPM motors do we have on these forums?

As far as I can tell, our engine has a strong and stiff bottom end that is well built for our intended use. It has an internally balanced crankshaft which is less like to break due to torsional vibration.

There are a lot of Honda, Toyota, and Nissan guys who use underdrive crank pulleys in road racing series like NASA or SCCA. Road racing is much more punishing on an engine than other motorsports. The engine is subjected to run times lasting roughly 30 minutes with the engine always in the upper ranges of its rpm limit. One race weekend is the equivlent of hundreds of 1/4 mile passes. These guys would not use NST pulleys if they were not reliable.

NST sponsored the first ever wheel to wheel Scion tC NASA Road Race car. The same car was very competitive in the Grand Am series and had factory backing from Toyota, Scion, and TRD. This car used pulleys from NST with great results since day one.

NST has sponsored several drift cars participating in the professional US drift series, Fromula Drift. Several of our cars have also competed in the Xtreme Drift Circuit and NOPI Drift series. To make things better, NST products are also used in autocross, time attack, and drag cars. These cars have been using NST pulleys with no issues of any kind for the past few seasons.

We could go on and on...

Is a solid crank pulley harmless to all engines? No it is not. As I said... small, super high reving engines, when modified way past the simple bolt on stages may have problems. These engines reach critical harmonics, past the 10,000 rpm range, an RPM only reached by certain RACE engines. A mildly modded engine (intake, header, exhaust, etc) be fine but one subjected to high rpm for long periods of time (90% of its life) with LOTS of boost will probably suffer. In this case, the stock damper is not adequate either.

Some of the older american V8 engines are externally balanced and it is critical not to use a solid hub pulley not designed for these applications, or damage to the engine could result. You will not find solid NST pulleys on our website for such engines.

Our engines and most around here do not fall into the above categories. Rest assured that your engines will not blow up and die nor have a reduced life in street and even racing use with these parts.

I would bet that every "expert" that tells you otherwise has little personal, practical, real world experience with the subject; as it applies in your case.

Again, I understand that your cars are a very large investment and that you depend on them as your daily means of transportation, so I do not take your questions personally. But please remember... No NST product is designed to cause you any harm or grief. Not all pulleys are created equal, and no other pulley is an NST pulley.

[why?]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Except one is SFI rated and is an actual damper while the other one is a hunk of turned aluminum...

do you know which SFI? Does it say that anywhere? Do you really think that is something other than marketing bs?

That is like saying MLB approves of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays because they are a baseball team.

Now if these cars were antique massive v8's, then it might be an issue. But they aren't.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by NonStopTuning

Take a look at any modern (1980s and beyond) Honda, Toyota, Nissan, or other Japanese engine and you will find no such balancer. These engines are all internally balanced, and this process has improved even further since the late 1990s. So the topic of a BALANCER does not apply here.

While I believe the comment about being internally balanced may hold true, the 4G63 had issues with lightweight crank pulleys. I never had one, so I don't recall how long it typically took to manifest, but it's an example that demonstrates the concern is valid.

Of course, that means nothing for this particular engine - We've seen some harmonics charts that demonstrate ALL measured pulleys have a harmonic - just of different natures. Without knowing how that applies to an engine I can't make an educated read of the data (I don't know if even or odd order is more destructive in this case, though other areas I work that deal with sinusoidal resonance put odd order as much worse...) but it makes me skeptical all around. Even the stock pulley has issues - waterfall looks notably worse than aftermarket pulleys of any kind, but the lightweight pulley seems to keep those isolated to higher orders (except that 2nd order bump at 2k all pulleys seem to have issues with is worse on the lightweight - since it's at the start of the graph, perhaps it's an artifact of the process?)

Then, there are the remaining pulleys you guys offer, to which none of this likely applies. I'm pretty sure I remember you'll happily NOT send a crank pulley for anyone worried...

I'm also not buying (at least, not soon...) so no horse in this race.

It's an expensive proposition. Suggesting "well, all these people do this and they're fine" is well and good, but... I can say the same about ignoring stop-signs in my neighborhood.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by why?

do you know which SFI? Does it say that anywhere? Do you really think that is something other than marketing bs?

That is like saying MLB approves of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays because they are a baseball team.

Now if these cars were antique massive v8's, then it might be an issue. But they aren't.

http://www.fluidampr.com/what/what-s...fied-means-83/

By the way, this was incredibly difficult information to find. It literally took me hours of research.

[raven1231]

5 years of verified butt dyno evidence, with a sample size of 1. How is that a legitimate sample size? Anyway, I'm not here to argue either side, just thought that comment was funny.

[350matt]

just one comment

torsional vibration

thats it

[Ultramaroon]

Let's for a minute forget about why you will find a harmonic balancer on literally every single OEM. Instead, let's just focus on cost.

In calculating the cost to manufacture an item, the number of operations and processes required make up a significant portion.

Why would manufacturers pay for such devices instead of simple pulleys? The NVH argument is BS, BTW.

[why?]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

http://www.fluidampr.com/what/what-s...fied-means-83/

By the way, this was incredibly difficult information to find. It literally took me hours of research.

Btw, do you understand what it actually means? Pretty much nothing. They don't give out grades, they don't let you see any user base, they just post up some obscure SFI number and just like the BBB, they expect it to mean something. If these damper things were so great, why are they the only ones making them, but every company that can has a lightweight pulley of some sort? Seriously there is at least half a dozen different companies making a lightweight pulley for the 86.

Originally Posted by raven1231

5 years of verified butt dyno evidence, with a sample size of 1. How is that a legitimate sample size? Anyway, I'm not here to argue either side, just thought that comment was funny.

I'm just here to make fun of everyone without any actual experience. It entertains me. The CSG team is pretty much the only people who have any experience besides NST. The funny part about it is both can easily be right simply because different cars and different people can easily equal different results. Don't take me as a spokesperson for anyone or anything.

And there is a massive number of people running pulleys to the point it is hard to find an auto enthusiast forum that does not have a bunch of people doing it. Do you really think there would be 6 companies (at least) making a lightweight pully for the 86 if there was any chance they could cause real damage in this insane lawyer happy country?

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Let's for a minute forget about why you will find a harmonic balancer on literally every single OEM. Instead, let's just focus on cost.
In calculating the cost to manufacture an item, the number of operations and processes required make up a significant portion.
Why would manufacturers pay for such devices instead of simple pulleys? The NVH argument is BS, BTW.

You don't find a harmonic balancer on every oem. You find a steel paperweight with a tiny strip of rubber.
Why would they pay for something that is dramatically less expensive? Gee I wonder. Same reason the 86's aren't FI from the factory, same reason they used Prius tires, same reason everyone who wants to track it needs an oil cooler, etc.

The NVH argument is not bs. Thinking that tiny strip of rubber actually does anything is bs. If you want to see a real harmonic damper and piece that actually helps to balance an engine go look at actual engines that are externally balanced. There is a gigantic difference.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by why?

Btw, do you understand what it actually means? Pretty much nothing. They don't give out grades, they don't let you see any user base, they just post up some obscure SFI number and just like the BBB, they expect it to mean something. If these damper things were so great, why are they the only ones making them, but every company that can has a lightweight pulley of some sort? Seriously there is at least half a dozen different companies making a lightweight pulley for the 86.



I'm just here to make fun of everyone without any actual experience. It entertains me. The CSG team is pretty much the only people who have any experience besides NST. The funny part about it is both can easily be right simply because different cars and different people can easily equal different results. Don't take me as a spokesperson for anyone or anything.

And there is a massive number of people running pulleys to the point it is hard to find an auto enthusiast forum that does not have a bunch of people doing it. Do you really think there would be 6 companies (at least) making a lightweight pully for the 86 if there was any chance they could cause real damage in this insane lawyer happy country?



You don't find a harmonic balancer on every oem. You find a steel paperweight with a tiny strip of rubber.
Why would they pay for something that is dramatically less expensive? Gee I wonder. Same reason the 86's aren't FI from the factory, same reason they used Prius tires, same reason everyone who wants to track it needs an oil cooler, etc.

The NVH argument is not bs. Thinking that tiny strip of rubber actually does anything is bs. If you want to see a real harmonic damper and piece that actually helps to balance an engine go look at actual engines that are externally balanced. There is a gigantic difference.

Again, I never said it would cause engine damage or anything else. I think a company will make something if there are people that will buy it. As for the causing damage part, companies make parts that can damage cars all the time (Nitrous, Forced Induction kits, etc.)

And yes I thought that comment was comical, as a sample size of 1 is a joke regardless of who it's from.

Keep enjoying your pulleys bud, that's all that matters.

[NonStopTuning]

There are a number of misleading/misguided arguments in the last few posts, but I will address this 1...

Saying that a sample size of 1 is comical, is either as a result of ignorance, an attempt to be inflammatory, or simply stupid. The sample size of people using NST products is more like 10,000 across more than a dozen platforms (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc) and across several continents. 10,000+ users, 99% of which are happy with these products over a span of 10+ years. Some of these users are street car owners, some are weekend warriors, some are professional race car drivers and team members.

Then you have a small group of people who have never tested, much less used, these products claiming that they are terrible and should not be used.

If 10,000+ people used a product for a decade and told you it worked, and a few people looked at pictures of said product on the internet for a few seconds and said it didn't work, of course you would take the word of the latter as gospel, right? The 10,000+ real world users must all be stupid... yes, that's it.

Best of luck with all your projects everyone!

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by why?

You don't find a harmonic balancer on every oem. You find a steel paperweight with a tiny strip of rubber.
Why would they pay for something that is dramatically less expensive? Gee I wonder. Same reason the 86's aren't FI from the factory, same reason they used Prius tires, same reason everyone who wants to track it needs an oil cooler, etc.

To the untrained eye, intuitively, it may seem flimsy when actually its just stiff enough so the fundamental mode is some known margin above the highest input frequency. That way, it's <cough> cheaper to make.

Originally Posted by why?

The NVH argument is not bs. Thinking that tiny strip of rubber actually does anything is bs. If you want to see a real harmonic damper and piece that actually helps to balance an engine go look at actual engines that are externally balanced. There is a gigantic difference.

ok.

[Calum]