So how many have to die before they...

[Thorpedo]

I think this problem is 100% on the instructors and organizing staff. A recent post about the corvette owner who relied completely on vsc/trac made this obvious to me. Instructors need to have the balls to haul someone off the track by their ear if they get out of line, even if they are paying customers. I haven't been doing HPDEs for long (and I'm certainly no instructor), but I can tell you right now that if I was in a car with someone who I felt shouldn't be on track, I would have NO problem telling them to take me in. I don't care if they're the track owner.

[jjaisli]

After running 2 seasons of HPDE events with my FR-S, I'm also a bit bemused by the guys who show up in DE1 groups for the first time, driving a brand new C7 Corvette or 911. And there doesn't seem to be a shortage of them. But what the heck, at least they have the right idea. Better on the track than on the street. I just never thought it was a good idea to learn car control in a vehicle that has more HP than most race cars did when I was born. But that's me.

I suppose like most people, I'd like to think that I have some moderate level of car control, and better than the average driver on the road. (Although, considering what you see out there, that's not admitting to much). I'm at the point now (D2, moving up to D3) where I'm comfortable driving without traction control, helping rotating the car into turns with the throttle, pushing a bit, hearing the tires howl, using all the track, etc. and generally moving at a good clip and feeling comfortable doing it. But I know where my limits are and I'm not going to push beyond my comfort zone. Even though the bar for that comfort zone is moving higher with more experience. That's not to say that I couldn't make a mistake but I couldn't imagine showing up with a 400+ hp car and just going bonkers with less experience than I have now. Although I suppose it does happen. Remember the guy in the Z06 at Autoclub Speedway a few months ago? So perhaps I'm just naive and idiots like that really do exist in much greater numbers than I ever realized.

I think the people who take their ridiculously high powered car to the track for the first time and crash are likely a rarity. What's probably more dangerous, and I hate to admit it, are the guys in my group, guys who have some skill and have been doing this for a little while and are getting faster and growing a pair. Where maybe just one would suffice. And very quickly, they start punching above their weight limit. I suppose it happens but I've rarely seen somebody do something really stupid with an instructor in the car. And if they do they're shut down pretty quickly. The few times I've seen people do some really dumb things (A guy in a Corvette dive bomb 4 cars when only the last car gave him a point by, a guy who gave a point by and then thought he should race the car to the corner, and generally, guys who are driving quickly, but inconsistently, with erratic lines and dangerous moves). In those cases, they're all drivers who have been signed off to solo.

I've done HPDE events with 4 different groups. Each has their own criteria for moving up the ladder. But I've never once been questioned or asked to verify my experience level. And there doesn't seem to be a system in place to really confirm you have the level of expertise that you claim to have. With instructors out there on the track, reporting things back, and active and astute flag marshals, drivers like that could and should be reeled in pretty quickly. But I suppose it's easy to get somebody out there who's in over his head. And I've been to some events that were short of instructors and drivers that really needed them (whether they thought so or not) went without. And I thought how that was handled was dreadful. And dangerous.

So perhaps the real issue is how these club events are actually regulated. Right now, they're all self regulated. And most seem to do a decent job. But if these kind of incidents and tragic accidents are really more common than I thought, perhaps it's something that will be forced on them in the future. I assume they have to have some sort of liability insurance of their own if they run and oversee these events.

But I have a question in general, and I hope this isn't too far off topic. As my own experience grows and I see myself going faster, safety concerns are always on my mind. And I've begun to consider my options. My FR-S isn't my daily driver and I wonder if it might be in my interest to turn it into a dedicated track car. But I wonder about that too. Installing a full, professionally built and certified roll cage and racing seat and using a 6 point harness and Hans device, means I can no longer drive the car to and from the track. I don't have a trailer. I don't have a vehicle capable of towing a trailer. And I like to drive but I'll be blunt, I don't turn wrenches. And with the hours I work, there's limits to what I can do. So aside from the cost of installing all of this safety equipment, buying a trailer and a vehicle to tow it (and registering them and insuring them) the process is going to increase my cost dramatically. And probably to a point that I may not have it in the budget to continue.

Right now, this is a hobby for me at best. So taking that step is really a serious question. And then, to be blunt, after going through all of this, how much safer is it really. OK, I can imagine a lot of rolling eyes right now, but I'm serious. Is a modern car like the FR-S with curtain airbags, in a non-roll over situation, really going to be dramatically less safe than an FR-S with a full roll cage? Or let's say I scrap the idea of turning the FRS into a track car and just buy a dedicated track converted E36 BMW--is that car, designed during a time when there were very different levels of safety really going to be any safer than an FT86? I mean, I assume it would be. Probably. But do we really know? And then, I suppose it depends on the circumstances. In an absolute worst case scenario, something like a high speed frontal impact where you had no chance to bleed off any speed, is that equipment going to make any difference at all? We see lots of NHTSA and Insurance institute tests of offset frontal impacts and minor fender benders of road cars. But what kind of standardized and controlled tests are out there that really dig deep and compare what kind of difference that equipment makes. And are there really any controlled test that really compare how a modern car with state of the art safety equipment could handle spinning off the road and bouncing off the armco at 110 mph. Or T-boning another vehicle that's just spun back onto the track at 80 mph. Surely from years of racing we have some idea of what works. But getting more back to the original post, I'm not sure if mandating this kind of equipment is really going to eliminate the root of the problem.

Anyway, I think if you accept that you're going to be driving on a race track at high speeds, and you sign that waiver, you have to accept that you're taking a certain level of risk. And everybody should be keenly aware of that.

[MaximeT]

I really don't know how you guys can be instructors. That looks like a very uncomfortable and dangerous job.

Spending 4 laps every 6 months in the passenger seat of friends is enough for me.

I can't imagine teaching strangers.

I'm glad I only teach SimRacing.

[Icanfaptothis86]

Its a structural problem

1. Guys buy cars with HP correlated to lack of penis size.... Lack of penis size = lack of confidence

2. This lack of confidence and self esteem lead to a false sense of (i.e. over)confidence in their driving abilities (Guys will never admit they are bad at fucking or driving)

3. It follows naturally that at HPDEs these individuals with the small willies park it in the corners by braking early as hell and then find their way into concrete barriers the first time they get power on oversteer.

Not all M3, GT3, C4 drivers are choads but many are. Rich men can afford the toys but you cant buy skill off a shelf. You have to earn it and this is an area where I am happy to humble them.

[Scenic Driver]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

I've done HPDE events with 4 different groups. Each has their own criteria for moving up the ladder. But I've never once been questioned or asked to verify my experience level. And there doesn't seem to be a system in place to really confirm you have the level of expertise that you claim to have. With instructors out there on the track, reporting things back, and active and astute flag marshals, drivers like that could and should be reeled in pretty quickly.

Some groups are pretty good with this, at the Audi Club events I went to, even if you had tons of experience, if you didn't have experience with the chapter putting on the event, they still make you ride with an instructor so they can verify how you're driving. All of the instructors have to go through testing as well so you don't have people that are mainly there for a discount.

I also think there is a big difference between clubs like Audi Club, PCA, etc and groups that are purely in it for profit in what they will let people get away with.

[Icanfaptothis86]

The schools and track day organizers have very little interest in forcing you to get a cage bc the numbers will drop thru the floor and they go belly up. It will raise prices for all of us.

Personally i think its funny having fuckasses out there

[Pat]

In my experience there is a MASSIVE difference in how events are run depending on the organization. In NASA Rocky Mountain we rarely experience people driving beyond their limits in HPDE 1/2.
That said, I have experienced other groups that make me concerned about being on the track with them at any time.
I think establishing a hard and fast rule for speed, power:weight, etc. is filled with good intentions, but executing it would be an exercise in failure and frustration. As someone else pointed out, there are quite simply too many variables to consider. Rather, I think it is important to learn from those with experience, keep your ego in check and have consistent reminders of potential consequences.

[Special_K]

I kind of fall into two camps here:

The first being that once you sign that waiver, it is imperative to realize life and limb are being put on the line to fuel your adrenaline fix. Shit happens no matter what kind of safety precautions and regulations are put into effect., and before you put your foot down, you had best come correct. One fuck up will absolutely kill you quicker than you can say, "shit, I'm dead"

The second camp I fall into is that Novice's have WAY too much leniency when it comes to getting out on the track. Many newbie track/hpders haven't a clue what to do out there, but are often unwilling to ask for guidance or help in fear of looking out of their element (read: egos).

When I was a novice, the group around me was filled with all types of people/cars. Some were honest enthusiasts who wanted to learn car control and others just wanted mash their foot to the floor of their new ride. And as far as training us there wasn't much more beyond a quick intro as to what to do in certain events, where to go, and what to watch out for. Then it was a quick trip with the instructor followed by, "Congrats, you made it around the track without killing anyone!" And before we new it, we were all thrown out their into the meat grinder, with most of us (me probably included) in over our heads.

[Deep Six]

I can see speed limits actually creating more congestion on the track just as slow cars in the left hand lane create the same problem on the highway. I have seen plenty of accidents at the track incuding one of my own and the vast majority happen mid to corner exit not in the high speed straights.

Low horsepower does not always mean low speed as I see 131 at Roebling and 121 at Sebring, well into the catastrophic damage zone. I think a good many of the high powered cars crash when torque overpowers grip and happens well under any considered maximum speed limit.

If anything absolutely should be done it should be a Hans devise mandate.

[Sleepless]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Waivers exist for a reason.

To make lawyers rich...

Waivers mean next to nothing. After the two guys died in the crash at Fontana in a Carrera GT, the wife of the passenger sued and got a few million, mostly from the driver's wife. Even Porsche paid her because the car did not posses proper nannies...

[Ultramaroon]

The fact that some (all?) lawyers gladly make a living from such hypocrisy is sad but irrelevant.

A few months ago someone posted a video of a random agro noob vette driver acting like a total asshat on the track. More than the driver's behavior, I became especially disturbed by the instructor's complete lack of control over the situation.

This is where I draw the line in the argument. If I'm responsible for a student's safety in a life-and-death situation you better believe I'm going to have that student on a tight leash.

Just sitting there and taking it is bullshit. I see where similar video could be peer reviewed to rate instructors' performance in various categories just as well as the students'.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Thorpedo

I think this problem is 100% on the instructors and organizing staff. A recent post about the corvette owner who relied completely on vsc/trac made this obvious to me. Instructors need to have the balls to haul someone off the track by their ear if they get out of line, even if they are paying customers. I haven't been doing HPDEs for long (and I'm certainly no instructor), but I can tell you right now that if I was in a car with someone who I felt shouldn't be on track, I would have NO problem telling them to take me in. I don't care if they're the track owner.

Oops. Missed this. I think we watched the same vid.

[Fastbrew]

How many people must die before we stop loving speed? I would say almost everyone.

[Locust]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

After running 2 seasons of HPDE events with my FR-S, I'm also a bit bemused by the guys who show up in DE1 groups for the first time, driving a brand new C7 Corvette or 911. And there doesn't seem to be a shortage of them. But what the heck, at least they have the right idea. Better on the track than on the street. I just never thought it was a good idea to learn car control in a vehicle that has more HP than most race cars did when I was born. But that's me.

I suppose like most people, I'd like to think that I have some moderate level of car control, and better than the average driver on the road. (Although, considering what you see out there, that's not admitting to much). I'm at the point now (D2, moving up to D3) where I'm comfortable driving without traction control, helping rotating the car into turns with the throttle, pushing a bit, hearing the tires howl, using all the track, etc. and generally moving at a good clip and feeling comfortable doing it. But I know where my limits are and I'm not going to push beyond my comfort zone. Even though the bar for that comfort zone is moving higher with more experience. That's not to say that I couldn't make a mistake but I couldn't imagine showing up with a 400+ hp car and just going bonkers with less experience than I have now. Although I suppose it does happen. Remember the guy in the Z06 at Autoclub Speedway a few months ago? So perhaps I'm just naive and idiots like that really do exist in much greater numbers than I ever realized.

I think the people who take their ridiculously high powered car to the track for the first time and crash are likely a rarity. What's probably more dangerous, and I hate to admit it, are the guys in my group, guys who have some skill and have been doing this for a little while and are getting faster and growing a pair. Where maybe just one would suffice. And very quickly, they start punching above their weight limit. I suppose it happens but I've rarely seen somebody do something really stupid with an instructor in the car. And if they do they're shut down pretty quickly. The few times I've seen people do some really dumb things (A guy in a Corvette dive bomb 4 cars when only the last car gave him a point by, a guy who gave a point by and then thought he should race the car to the corner, and generally, guys who are driving quickly, but inconsistently, with erratic lines and dangerous moves). In those cases, they're all drivers who have been signed off to solo.

I've done HPDE events with 4 different groups. Each has their own criteria for moving up the ladder. But I've never once been questioned or asked to verify my experience level. And there doesn't seem to be a system in place to really confirm you have the level of expertise that you claim to have. With instructors out there on the track, reporting things back, and active and astute flag marshals, drivers like that could and should be reeled in pretty quickly. But I suppose it's easy to get somebody out there who's in over his head. And I've been to some events that were short of instructors and drivers that really needed them (whether they thought so or not) went without. And I thought how that was handled was dreadful. And dangerous.

So perhaps the real issue is how these club events are actually regulated. Right now, they're all self regulated. And most seem to do a decent job. But if these kind of incidents and tragic accidents are really more common than I thought, perhaps it's something that will be forced on them in the future. I assume they have to have some sort of liability insurance of their own if they run and oversee these events.

But I have a question in general, and I hope this isn't too far off topic. As my own experience grows and I see myself going faster, safety concerns are always on my mind. And I've begun to consider my options. My FR-S isn't my daily driver and I wonder if it might be in my interest to turn it into a dedicated track car. But I wonder about that too. Installing a full, professionally built and certified roll cage and racing seat and using a 6 point harness and Hans device, means I can no longer drive the car to and from the track. I don't have a trailer. I don't have a vehicle capable of towing a trailer. And I like to drive but I'll be blunt, I don't turn wrenches. And with the hours I work, there's limits to what I can do. So aside from the cost of installing all of this safety equipment, buying a trailer and a vehicle to tow it (and registering them and insuring them) the process is going to increase my cost dramatically. And probably to a point that I may not have it in the budget to continue.

Right now, this is a hobby for me at best. So taking that step is really a serious question. And then, to be blunt, after going through all of this, how much safer is it really. OK, I can imagine a lot of rolling eyes right now, but I'm serious. Is a modern car like the FR-S with curtain airbags, in a non-roll over situation, really going to be dramatically less safe than an FR-S with a full roll cage? Or let's say I scrap the idea of turning the FRS into a track car and just buy a dedicated track converted E36 BMW--is that car, designed during a time when there were very different levels of safety really going to be any safer than an FT86? I mean, I assume it would be. Probably. But do we really know? And then, I suppose it depends on the circumstances. In an absolute worst case scenario, something like a high speed frontal impact where you had no chance to bleed off any speed, is that equipment going to make any difference at all? We see lots of NHTSA and Insurance institute tests of offset frontal impacts and minor fender benders of road cars. But what kind of standardized and controlled tests are out there that really dig deep and compare what kind of difference that equipment makes. And are there really any controlled test that really compare how a modern car with state of the art safety equipment could handle spinning off the road and bouncing off the armco at 110 mph. Or T-boning another vehicle that's just spun back onto the track at 80 mph. Surely from years of racing we have some idea of what works. But getting more back to the original post, I'm not sure if mandating this kind of equipment is really going to eliminate the root of the problem.

Anyway, I think if you accept that you're going to be driving on a race track at high speeds, and you sign that waiver, you have to accept that you're taking a certain level of risk. And everybody should be keenly aware of that.

I pretty much never hit the thank button on posts around here so take this for what it is. Thank you for your response; it's very well composed.