So how many have to die before they...

[wparsons]

I don't think speed limits are the answer, they're WAY too variable from track to track and car to car.

I've led alligator lapping at CTMP GP (mosport, GP track) for people that have never seen a track before, and the average speed was ~70-80km/h through all corners except 5, getting up to about 120km/h on the back straight. If I were to try that at the DDT (development track, right next door), even people with some experience would be struggling to stay on the track at those speeds.

Same thing goes for different cars/setups, I've gone out mid session and had people struggle to keep up on my warm up lap when they're already up to temperature and I'm moving at like 60% speed.

If I'm in insructing, I prefer to gauge it by how the driver is doing in a given situation. Can they still talk their way around the track? Are there places they go silent? Have I been with them on a skidpad, or at least seen them from outside the car?

If I've seen them get out of shape and maintain composure and control, and they're not into situational overload, I'll let them go faster than someone I don't trust their skills as much. The limits have to be based on the driver, at that time of the day, in that car with the current weather conditions.

I've only been into a wall once, and it was as a passenger with a really experienced driver (way more experienced instructor). Had it been someone less experienced we would've hit WAY harder, and I might not have walked away without any injuries like I did (not even a bruise!). Definitely not something I want to make a regular occurance.

[glamcem]

the reason why I never considered becoming an instructor even with the added benefits on lapping days,sadly it's very common to hear another instructor gets killed on the passenger seat ...."ego+high HP+inexperience" is recipe for a deadly crash, IMO..if we look at that from a statistical standpoint, one of those days that student will hit a wall and even the less powerful cars may bring those risks.. yes more powerful newer cars will go faster but in some cases they will stop, handle better and provide more protection (thanks to newer standards ) and the old cars will be slower.. so I am not even sure which one is more dangerous than the other to what extent :/

[Vracer111]

I think the fastest I've ever gotten on any track I've been to is ~110mph... I much rather wring out the little cars in the corners at moderate speeds than go max speeds and rely on the brakes to be there to haul me down to needed corner entry speed. Friend of mine had his front outside wheel come off his '90s Taurus SHO (All studs completely sheared) when entering into TWS turn 1 (running CW) @ ~80mph...this happened right in front of me as I was following behind him. He was able to keep it on the edge of the track and get it stopped, but that wheel/tire went all the way to the outer fence (which is waaay far away) and hit it really HARD.... kind of visualized the massive forces the car sees while on track for me an woke me up a little.

You never know what is going to happen on track...but to me cornering and nailing my lines is what I'm there for, I could really care less what top speed I reach as long as I'm at the right speed for corner entry. Straights give you a chance to relax and check the car's condition out anyways. If it were a race it would be different, then maximum speed everywhere would be the goal... but for Open Track/HPDE I'm there to have a good time and dance with the car in the corners, becoming a more skillful dancing partner in the process.

I think any car beyond a certain power:weight should either have a rollbar minimum or be forced to limit top speed. If you are there to go fast you should have a car built to do so... if you are there for fun and true learning, 115-120mph maximum speed limit for HPDE should be more than you'll ever need. If your goal is to go fast, first get your skills to a proper level and your car properly setup for it safety wise and go do Time Trials.

[Kostamojen]

Waivers exist for a reason.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by MTCRX

But in this day and age unfortunately the track or promoters will be blamed and probably sued out of existence for your Darwinian activity. I am all for the rocket skateboard, unfortunately responsible people end up paying the price and losing out on the fun.

In addition I have been reading about more HPDE incidents where another driver takes you out because they are unskilled or unfortunate.

Yea, I do agree in the case where you are not alone on the track there are other considerations. Also, in the case of the track owners, they do have a level of rights to protect themselves (my house, my rules) but they should not be held responsible for actions of idiots on their track. (I know, the legal system says otherwise).

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Maybe I am getting old (no maybe about it actually) but I now believe it is possible for the average Joe with the financial means to buy too much power and performance. After all, you can now walk into a dealership and buy a car that would have exceeded the performance potential of most of the full on race cars from 10-20 years ago. I do not think the skill level of the drivers on the road have improved that much (at all?) in the same period..

This has always been the case though. Yes, HP is higher now, but so is the performance level of everything it is pushing to handle it, with the exception of the roads we drive on.


When I was a teenager I could have gone to any Pontiac dealership and with a pocket full of money bought a 3500lb, 400HP GTO with manual steering and drum brakes. I would argue that is a heck of lot more dangerous in the wrong hands than even a Hellcat.


Again, I see everyone's point particularly on a shared track or a public highway, but stupid people don't need a Hellcat type performance to do what has been described here.

[White64Goat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

On a track, controlled to where the only person you can hurt is yourself, I think it is perfectly acceptable for people to assume the risk of killing themselves. If I want to go solo on a track with a jet engine strapped to a skateboard, that should be OK.

HPDE-JE ??

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

Friend of mine had his front outside wheel come off his '90s Taurus SHO (All studs completely sheared) when entering into TWS turn 1 (running CW) @ ~80mph...this happened right in front of me as I was following behind him.

I would stay away from any organization that allows a 90s Taurus , but thats just me

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by vroom4

Did you copy your post word for word from another article that was released a few weeks ago. I seriously JUST read these nearly exact same words

Possibly on GRM? I just have a pretty set way I feel about it.

Originally Posted by Vracer111

115-120mph maximum speed limit for HPDE should be more than you'll ever need. If your goal is to go fast, first get your skills to a proper level and your car properly setup for it safety wise and go do Time Trials.

Where does this arbitrary number come from? My local track Hallett (which you may be familiar with being in Houston) is a TIGHT, technical track and the fast cars will still nearly hit that down the front straight.

Road Atlanta, Road America, etc, are all way faster. There is nothing saying you have to wind out your Z06 in 5th gear down a long straight.

Again, up to the individual to assess the risk level they are comfortable with (except in the case of dangerous driving or poorly prepped machine).

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

When I was a teenager I could have gone to any Pontiac dealership and with a pocket full of money bought a 3500lb, 400HP GTO with manual steering and drum brakes. I would argue that is a heck of lot more dangerous in the wrong hands than even a Hellcat.

I grew up in the same era and I have fond memories of those muscle car performers. Most of them did the 1/4 mile in the 13-15 second range in street trim. Today, you can buy 4 cylinder cars that will match them. Today's monsters will do the 1/4 mile in the 10-12 second range in street trim. The old cars topped out in the neighborhood of 120MPH. Today it is 170.

Back then if you went around a corner at 45 mph it scared you into slowing down due to the cars handling and piss poor brakes. Today's cars inspire confidence and encourage faster speeds because they handle cornering and braking so well. Faster speeds means that things happen a lot faster when something unexpected happens. I daresay that driver's today are ill prepared to deal with the unexpected. They expect the nannies (the car) to save them. If said nannies have been turned off due to ego then bad things can and do happen.

I am not saying that cars are not a lot safer today. They certainly are. I am just saying that performance of the cars has greatly surpassed the performance, ability and education of the drivers.

IMO, some track organizations do not vet the participants well enough. They also allow drivers to transition from novice to solo hot laps too soon and without proper monitoring.

It is OK to say that everyone knows the risk they are taking but try telling that to the wife, kids, parents and siblings of a guy that does not come back from a "fun day at the track".

[paiceyfan]

Being a newbie, I attended a track day recently for the first time. My vehicle is the BRZ and is the most powerful vehicle I have ever owned in 28 years of driving. Even so, I am very respectful of what it can do and what I can do with it. My instructor was very excellent in helping me through that first day and I was very conscious of the fact that I was in charge of my own life and my instructor's.


If this experience was taken away due to rule changes, I would be devastated. I loved every moment, had a scary moment going light over a crest, but learned and respected that here were drivers on the track that were more experienced and, frankly, better than myself.


What did concern me is that there were vehicles in my group that should not have been there, i.e. high powered, sponsored vehicles with drivers who had a lot more experience. For a beginner like me, these drivers would come up in my rear view mirror real fast and when I am trying to learn from my instructor, there's not much time to think or react. Groups were created for a reason, maybe they should be policed better for the safety of everyone.


I would like to give credit to all those instructors who help people like me learn, but if an instructor felt uncomfortable being in the passenger seat beside me, I would respect that and then question myself as to why I made him feel that way.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I grew up in the same era and I have fond memories of those muscle car performers.....

I can't dispute any of what you said, at some level its all true, but....

Originally Posted by Rampage

Back then if you went around a corner at 45 mph it scared you into slowing down due to the cars handling and piss poor brakes.

On that, I would say, no, probably not, at least not with folks with the same mindset you describe that would take a modern day car they don't know how to handle and turn off all the nannies. I lost personal friends or classmates that didn't know their own limitations and took those cars around that same corner at twice the speed because they knew they could handle it. As Forrest Gump says "Stupid is as Stupid Does" and that applies to every generation. The difference is now you almost have to be stupid at a higher speed because the cars are built to handle the better speeds to some extent.

Originally Posted by Rampage

It is OK to say that everyone knows the risk they are taking but try telling that to the wife, kids, parents and siblings of a guy that does not come back from a "fun day at the track".

Point taken but I'm willing to bet the wife, husband, kids, parents and siblings are fully aware of what the "victim" (my word, not yours) was taking on as risk. If not, they weren't paying very close attention. Doesn't make it any easier admittedly.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Rampage

... IMO, some track organizations do not vet the participants well enough. They also allow drivers to transition from novice to solo hot laps too soon and without proper monitoring.

Meant to add, absolutely agree. Even in some "commercial" applications of this that applies. Take the Andretti Driving Experience which I did last November. There is absolutely no skills test, and after a very brief "classroom" setting they put you behind the wheel of an open-wheeled, open-cockpit car capable of over 150MPH and turn you loose by yourself on a banked oval.


Sure, you have an instructor in your ear, and you are fairly spaced out, and they have a kill switch but in only three laps on the Atlanta Motor Speedway oval I passed two cars that were going significantly slower than me. Had either decided to pull down on the flats in the banked curve at speed when I passed them, they would have been upside down in the pits.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by White64Goat

HPDE-JE ??

Attachment 119029

Where do I sign!?!