Motor Trend's $28K Bang for the Buck (spoiler alert!)

[86fanatic]

Originally Posted by RaceR

The mustang as it is competes with the m3?
... you funny man... :p

Yes, haven't you heard? According to the wise and omnipotent internet forum tribunal, Mustangs compete with M3s, Evos compete with Lamborghinis, and GTRs compete with Veryons. It is as the YouTube 30 second clip gods have decided and it will be repeated ad nauseum on these and similar discussion forums until the great YouTube Adjudicator makes further 30 second clip judgements.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

Yes, haven't you heard? According to the wise and omnipotent internet forum tribunal, Mustangs compete with M3s, Evos compete with Lamborghinis, and GTRs compete with Veryons. It is as the YouTube 30 second clip gods have decided and it will be repeated ad nauseum on these and similar discussion forums until the great YouTube Adjudicator makes further 30 second clip judgements.

Not the V6. But yes the Mustang V8 will run with an M3 on the track. I believe this same magazine you are using to bench race now had a showdown where a lowly stick axle Mustang slapped an M3 around on the track.

[86fanatic]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Not the V6. But yes the Mustang V8 will run with an M3 on the track. I believe this same magazine you are using to bench race now had a showdown where a lowly stick axle Mustang slapped an M3 around on the track.

Besides making the classic error of conflating track times with actual handling (a C63 AMG goes around a track fairly quickly but no one has ever accused it of being a great handling car) - you are making the epic failure of comparing cars across two entirely different classes. Those kinds of comparisons fuel asinine online discussions and sell magazines/advertisements - they aren't really good for anything else.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

Besides making the classic error of conflating track times with actual handling (a C63 AMG goes around a track fairly quickly but no one has ever accused it of being a great handling car) - you are making the epic failure of comparing cars across two entirely different classes. Those kinds of comparisons fuel asinine online discussions and sell magazines/advertisements - they aren't really good for anything else.

So when Motor Trend supports the twins it's epic journalism, but when it supports the Mustang it is fuelling asinine online arguments?

Good job, fanboi.

Facts are Mustangs don't suck anymore, and are faster than some very respected machinery. Are you confident enough having 'fun' that it will take the sting out of losing to a secretary's car on the track or on the freeway?

This is a real question that I don't think enough potential buyers are asking themselves. I've resolved myself to being slow when I got rid of my lightened twin turbo Supra in anticipation of the twins. But sometimes being first is pretty fucking fun too.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Dimman

@RaceR are you an American in Europe or European? How much experience do you have with Mustangs? They don't suck donkey balls anymore like they did in the 90s.

It's not the car for me, but I respect its capabilities.

Im in Europe (Norway) from Europe.
I have no first personal first hand experience with the modern mustangs. They are not sold here since they are not competitive in the marked.
Minimal experience with the old classics and I do in no way compare modern day mustangs with the old classics.

I do read a lot of reviews, and watch a lot of test on performance cars from many different sources.
It is easy to see that several US tests seems to easiler favor american cars. In the same way I see EU cars often being favored in EU. And the Japanese performance tests favoring the Japanese cars.
I rarely see US cars being favored in EU and Japan tough. Most American cars are just to heavy and big (and often not as good value here, especially not in Norway due to engine taxes! I would really love to see more of them here. Sadly muscle cars are a rare sight here.)

Over the years I would say I have a pretty good feel of what I like.
I can tell you I have never owned a car that weights more than the 86. (except a 2010 Golf I drove for a year, company/private car. But it was not really mine)
I test drove the E87 1-series and tough I would love it based on reviews.
After minutes of driving it (with sport package) I understood it was just too heavy and fat. Also, I would spin the inner tire of it all the time in the wet. I drive very spirited, and roads here are nothing like the US. No fun with stock diff. So, I did not buy it.
..we have roundabouts everywhere. 90 degree turs on smaller roads several places. And generally lots of twisty mountain roads compared to the US. Typical roads near me have a 50-60km speed limit. Going 26km makes you lose your license and gives you a 1k+ ticket.
There are lots of rain. And we have some snow in the winter. Corners is where the fun is.
Needless to say. Handling and agility are generally preferred. High power not so, especially due to engine taxes.

I say the same as you.
It's not the car for me, but I respect its capabilities.

I just have a hard time to see why certain people bash the motortrend test for putting the Toybarus at the top. It basically only recived praise everywhere. No surprise to see it at a top in a "budget" performance car test. It have received praise all over the place.

I think AlanLGuy nailed it.

Originally Posted by AlanLGuy

To me the V6 mustang is a car that doesn't quite know it's purpose, it's tries to be an affordable daily driver, a good ol American pony car, and a responsive sports car, and it fulfills all those roles well, it just doesn't do any one of them great.

The Toybaru only tries to be a drivers car at an affordable price. Atleast for those with certain "harcore" preferences.

I will not call people a fanboi just because they have the knowledge to differentiate cars based on features, like Dimmian have.

And btw. The motortrend review M3 vs Mustang GT V8.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOwSPccbzl4"]Super Coupes Track Attack! - 2011 Ford Mustang GT vs 2011 BMW M3 Coupe - YouTube[/ame]

The M3 won in terms of laptimes. (yes basically tied)
But it also won overall. Just look at it. It drives like a performance car.
The Mustang looks like a fatty on the track.
The M3 only had some understeer due to its tires. (wider back vs front.. It also had the less good continentals on it. Making braking and cornerg Gs become worse compared to many other tests with PS2 tires.. ohh, I must be a fanboi now)
With less understeer it would have been even quicker. On a tighter track, even quicker.

And if we should look at laptimes at, Virginia International Raceway, USA
43. BMW M3 3:05.40 '07 420 / 1619
57. Ford Mustang GT 5.0 3:08.60 '11 412 / 1648

If we look at laptimes at the Nordschleife. There are no records of Mustangs! WHY? (They should do good)

M3 is the benchmark all over the world in its class. Anyone with knowledge to the car would know how much more sophisticated it is. It is a premium coupe. Also available as sedan. No other car in its class (Mustang is not in that class!) combines road comfort with sportiness like that car.
It would not mean anything if the mustang were faster.
If you are after the M3s features it is just in another league, and therefore a higher price range even if track performance is pretty equal.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaZExdTHHjY"]BMW M3 vs Mercedes C63 AMG vs Audi RS4 in Spain - Top Gear - BBC - YouTube[/ame]

This is basically just the track part of the review. It was much longer and detailed. Cars like that should not be compared directly to a mustang when just looking at track performance. They offer so much more!

And please dont drag M3s or other irrelevant cars into the equation..

I ask again. What was the problem with the Mustang on 4. place and Toybaru at the top? I would like to hear your (you guys) point of view. It is just so clear based on the motortrend reviews I linked to.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Im in Europe (Norway) from Europe.
I have no first personal first hand experience with the modern mustangs. They are not sold here since they are not competitive in the marked.
Minimal experience with the old classics and I do in no way compare modern day mustangs with the old classics.

I do read a lot of reviews, and watch a lot of test on performance cars from many different sources.
It is easy to see that several US tests seems to easiler favor american cars. In the same way I see EU cars often being favored in EU. And the Japanese performance tests favoring the Japanese cars.
I rarely see US cars being favored in EU and Japan tough. Most American cars are just to heavy and big (and often not as good value here, especially not in Norway due to engine taxes! I would really love to see more of them here. Sadly muscle cars are a rare sight here.)

Over the years I would say I have a pretty good feel of what I like.
I can tell you I have never owned a car that weights more than the 86. (except a 2010 Golf I drove for a year, company/private car. But it was not really mine)
I test drove the E87 1-series and tough I would love it based on reviews.
After minutes of driving it (with sport package) I understood it was just too heavy and fat. Also, I would spin the inner tire of it all the time in the wet. I drive very spirited, and roads here are nothing like the US. No fun with stock diff. So, I did not buy it.
..we have roundabouts everywhere. 90 degree turs on smaller roads several places. And generally lots of twisty mountain roads compared to the US. Typical roads near me have a 50-60km speed limit. Going 26km makes you lose your license and gives you a 1k+ ticket.
There are lots of rain. And we have some snow in the winter. Corners is where the fun is.
Needless to say. Handling and agility are generally preferred. High power not so, especially due to engine taxes.

I say the same as you.
It's not the car for me, but I respect its capabilities.

I just have a hard time to see why certain people bash the motortrend test for putting the Toybarus at the top. It basically only recived praise everywhere. No surprise to see it at a top in a "budget" performance car test. It have received praise all over the place.

I think AlanLGuy nailed it.


The Toybaru only tries to be a drivers car at an affordable price. Atleast for those with certain "harcore" preferences.

I will not call people a fanboi just because they have the knowledge to differentiate cars based on features, like Dimmian have.

And btw. The motortrend review M3 vs Mustang GT V8.

The M3 won in terms of laptimes. (yes basically tied)
But it also won overall. Just look at it. It drives like a performance car.
The Mustang looks like a fatty on the track.
The M3 only had some understeer due to its tires. (wider back vs front.. It also had the less good continentals on it. Making braking and cornerg Gs become worse compared to many other tests with PS2 tires.. ohh, I must be a fanboi now)
With less understeer it would have been even quicker. On a tighter track, even quicker.

And if we should look at laptimes at, Virginia International Raceway, USA
43. BMW M3 3:05.40 '07 420 / 1619
57. Ford Mustang GT 5.0 3:08.60 '11 412 / 1648

If we look at laptimes at the Nordschleife. There are no records of Mustangs! WHY? (They should do good)

M3 is the benchmark all over the world in its class. Anyone with knowledge to the car would know how much more sophisticated it is. It is a premium coupe. Also available as sedan. No other car in its class (Mustang is not in that class!) combines road comfort with sportiness like that car.
It would not mean anything if the mustang were faster.
If you are after the M3s features it is just in another league, and therefore a higher price range even if track performance is pretty equal.

This is basically just the track part of the review. It was much longer and detailed. Cars like that should not be compared directly to a mustang when just looking at track performance. They offer so much more!

And please dont drag M3s or other irrelevant cars into the equation..

I ask again. What was the problem with the Mustang on 4. place and Toybaru at the top? I would like to hear your (you guys) point of view. It is just so clear based on the motortrend reviews I linked to.

So you write a wall of text about the m3 and then tell us not to bring it into the equation?

Here is my point of view again: the brz is more expensive than a mustang gt yet it wont come close to the performance of the mustang. Whether the car is for you or not doesnt effect its bang for buck

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by fatoni

So you write a wall of text about the m3 and then tell us not to bring it into the equation?

Here is my point of view again: the brz is more expensive than a mustang gt yet it wont come close to the performance of the mustang. Whether the car is for you or not doesnt effect its bang for buck

Tried to feed you information and some wisdom with a spoon. Hence the wall of text.
But now I give up. Lost case..

Cheers!

[Dimman]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxEhnugwzCc"]M3 Killer! Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laps Laguna Seca - YouTube[/ame]

Over 2 seconds faster than the M3, ~$49k in Canada, M3 is ~$72k.

This is what we are talking about 'bang for the buck'.

'Bang' is speed, which is objective. 'Buck' is dollars, which is also objective.

'Fun' is subjective. A lot of times winning is more fun than losing. Just saying...

[86fanatic]

The great and holy YouTube Adjudicator has spoken! Case closed people, go home.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

The great and holy YouTube Adjudicator has spoken! Case closed people, go home.

well we would be glad to hear your personal experiences tracking the mustang and the brz and what conclusions you came to

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Tried to feed you information and some wisdom with a spoon. Hence the wall of text.
But now I give up. Lost case..

Cheers!

what you did was show that the m3 is faster than a mustang gt. that is something i know. what i am confused by is the fact that despite the fact that the mustang is half the price you seem to be arguing that the m3 is more bang for the buck. at the same time, you are saying that the frs is more bang for the buck despite being both slower and more expensive.

[86fanatic]

Originally Posted by fatoni

well we would be glad to hear your personal experiences tracking the mustang and the brz and what conclusions you came to

It's very obvious in these online forums people who live their lives vicariously through youtube clips, and base their total opinion off what they see online, to those who are genuinely passionate about driving cars.

I really wonder what is the motivation behind the people who post ad nauseum in online forums about wacky track battles between the Mustang and the M3. You will only be preaching to the choir, that is the people who have the same philosophy of vicariously living through you tube clips.

The people disagreeing with you are trying to help you develop a more realistic and, ahem, reality based interpretation of these cars and what they are designed for. It doesn't take 20 years of track experience to understand that these cars are different, and anyone can go to a dealership and attempt to test drive them back to back to see the differences. That if, if you really are passionate about cars and not just trying to stir up problems in online discussion forums.

I won't reply further, and I truly I wish you the best. Engaging in these online discussions is always fruitless and after every reply I almost immediately regret the time I spent. I hope one day you feel the same, because these arguments do get everybody nowhere fast.

Cheers :happy0180:

[Capt Canuck]

The most awesome thing about this thread now is folks arguing about which car is the better representation of a wholly subjective moniker. As if one option can truly be the defacto answer

How about we give the Mustang the 'Bank for the Buck' crown and anoint the FRS/BRZ/GT86 as having the 'Most Bounce to the Ounce'?

[Tbomb 25]

1 thing i can say the Mustang in that test with the V6 performance pac is not numb and the steering is the best of all the domestics....is the feel of it better connected then BRZ/FRS no..but the connection is good screw that its very good actually.This particular Mustang is a killler deal...and 1 of the best bang for bucks options of all time its a shame the Mags are laying down the yellow brick road for the BRZ/FRS it doesent need that kind of unfair crap that their pulling its along with the Mustang the best for the money on its own merit take your pick which 1 do you want..the mags can go suck monkey balls...