Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Prove it. I've followed this car from it's inception and have never seen any Toyota Japan exec of rep mention the Camaro or Mustang in anything. Maybe you overheard a Scion valet talking out his ass at some point by accident. Toyota knows very well it has no chance or desire to compete with cheap push-rod led sleds favored by dixie boyz. Toyota could make the best Mustang ever and almost nobody would buy it because it's Japanese or says Toyota on it. You'd have to be inane to think you could compete with that market as a foreigner. Dodge already has enough trouble doing that and it has a more 'attractive' nameplate for that market.

They have always planned for a cheaper car under the 86 as well as a more expensive one over it. This is nothing new and has nothing to do with your speculation about market reactions or poor planning. Toyoda wanted to make a cheap sports car because it's in his DNA. Period. He did it despite resistance from Subaru initially because he has huevos. This is fact, not fiction. You sound like you've been reading a little too much Left Lane News.

So yeah, people can rail against Toyota the appliance maker all they want, but GM and Nissan have pussied out of this market. Only Mazda and (maybe) Honda are left.

Honestly, I'm not even sure WTH market Nissan does well in these days at all.

[ben721364]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Prove it. I've followed this car from it's inception and have never seen any Toyota Japan exec of rep mention the Camaro or Mustang in anything. Maybe you overheard a Scion valet talking out his ass at some point by accident. Toyota knows very well it has no chance or desire to compete with cheap push-rod led sleds favored by dixie boyz. Toyota could make the best Mustang ever and almost nobody would buy it because it's Japanese or says Toyota on it. You'd have to be inane to think you could compete with that market as a foreigner. Dodge already has enough trouble doing that and it has a more 'attractive' nameplate for that market.

They have always planned for a cheaper car under the 86 as well as a more expensive one over it. This is nothing new and has nothing to do with your speculation about market reactions or poor planning. Toyoda wanted to make a cheap sports car because it's in his DNA. Period. He did it despite resistance from Subaru initially because he has huevos. This is fact, not fiction. You sound like you've been reading a little too much Left Lane News.

So yeah, people can rail against Toyota the appliance maker all they want, but GM and Nissan have pussied out of this market. Only Mazda and (maybe) Honda are left.

Honestly, I'm not even sure WTH market Nissan does well in these days at all.

If I had written the above, I hope I would have gone back and deleted it. <G>

[rlpaul]

And another sales figures derailment. I'll play along;

I don't believe Toyota built the 86 to make money off of it. It brings people into the showroom, and its fun, and people like the way it looks and drives. An extreme example of this is the Bugatti Veyron. Volkswagen loses a few million dollars on every one it builds and sells. So... why make them? Because it sparks interest in the brand.

I think the 86 is the same, on an easier to swallow scale; its decently popular, and they probably break even on it. Its attainable to everyman. It has people excited about Toyota again. Sounds to me like its accomplishing its mission.

You have to remember how powerful anecdotal evidence and brand loyalty is to the average joe. "My 86 is so much fun to drive. I'm really happy with it. Since I need a new truck, and the 86 is so awesome, I'm going to buy a Toyota truck!"

So, as long as the 86 sells tens of thousands of units a year, I'd expect it to stick around, because even if Toyobaru isn't directly making money off each of those sales, it sparks interest in the brand, therefore indirectly increasing sales.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I disagree. For an affordable RWD Japanese sports car it is doing excellent, if anybody expected something different than any other offering from the land of the rising sun in the last 15 years they're insane.

This chart is fantastic. Doom-and-gloom journalists and internet keyboard jockeys should make sure they understand this chart before writing about how the Twins are sales flops.

Put another way these are the approximate initial three-year average sales numbers for the above cars:

350z: 27,000/yr
Twins: 24,000/yr
RX-8: 18,000/yr
NC Miata: 16,000/yr
370z: 11,000/yr
S2000: 8,000/yr

The Twins have sold well their first three years, especially compared with other Japanese RWD coupes/roadsters.

[rlpaul]

I find the Autoweek story to be a typicaly slow news day non-news story; The MY2015 WRX has a new engine, so that's the hot car for Subie right now. It'll likely smooth out over time. That's like saying "LeBron only averaged 31.4% shooting on Game 2, his career is over!" Its simply not a big enough data-set to mean anything at this point. Other than Toyobaru's marking for the twins is sub-par, but that's been true from the start.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by ben721364

You have completely lost/confused me. I won't attempt to argue with you. The facts [sales results] speak for themselves.

It's a simple concept: sales for the Toyobaru are doing rather well in the context of other cars with similar properties.

[ben721364]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It's a simple concept: sales for the Toyobaru are doing rather well in the context of other cars with similar properties.

I won't argue with your list of cars 'with similar properties'. Of course the Autoweek story was only addressing the drop off in sales from earlier models.

[ScoobsMcGee]

So the goodcarbadcar.net reference led me to waste a decent chunk of my morning, as usual. If you want to worry about a car not selling well, worry about the TT. I understand the MK III is (probably) soon to hit the US market, but still.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

[ben721364]

Originally Posted by ScoobsMcGee

So the goodcarbadcar.net reference led me to waste a decent chunk of my morning, as usual. If you want to worry about a car not selling well, worry about the TT. I understand the MK III is (probably) soon to hit the US market, but still.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

I don't know about others but I'm not 'worried' about sales figures of individual brands/models. I simply shared what I read in AutoWeek about the drop off of sales of the FR-S and the BRZ among others, from year to year. I think that the market for such cars is becoming saturated and that the "twins" will take additional sales from them during the first few months.

[ScoobsMcGee]

Originally Posted by ben721364

I don't know about others but I'm not 'worried' about sales figures of individual brands/models. I simply shared what I read in AutoWeek about the drop off of sales of the FR-S and the BRZ among others, from year to year. I think that the market for such cars is becoming saturated and that the "twins" will take additional sales from them during the first few months.

Sure, but my comment had nothing to do with the quibble about the AutoWeek article. While goofing off on a website I found that only 34 Audi TTs have been sold between the US and Canada in the past five months, so I linked it. You'll find the majority of my comments are off-topic and are intended to (hopefully) make someone chuckle.

[ben721364]

Originally Posted by ScoobsMcGee

Sure, but my comment had nothing to do with the quibble about the AutoWeek article. While goofing off on a website I found that only 34 Audi TTs have been sold between the US and Canada in the past five months, so I linked it. You'll find the majority of my comments are off-topic and are intended to (hopefully) make someone chuckle.

Thanks. <G> I got you.

The TT hasn't been a strong seller, that's for sure. The Audi brand overall is doing quite well, however.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by ScoobsMcGee

So the goodcarbadcar.net reference led me to waste a decent chunk of my morning, as usual. If you want to worry about a car not selling well, worry about the TT. I understand the MK III is (probably) soon to hit the US market, but still.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

Wow those figures are almost unbelievable. Almost think that has to be a mistake.

Journalists are writing articles saying FR-S/BRZ sales are dropping off dangerously, but there have been over 7,000 Twins sold from Jan-May of this year.

If those figures are correct, Audi has sold 14 TT's in the same timespan. Fourteen.

[zc06_kisstherain]

i've owned 96 NA Miata M Edition before twin.
I was very impressed with NA then i was even more impressed with twins when i test drove.

I still sometimes miss driving top down convertible car but i also need little space to carry stuff. also i need to carry my daughter occasionally as well but i would choose s2k over miata though..

[ScoobsMcGee]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Wow those figures are almost unbelievable. Almost think that has to be a mistake.

Journalists are writing articles saying FR-S/BRZ sales are dropping off dangerously, but there have been over 7,000 Twins sold from Jan-May of this year.

If those figures are correct, Audi has sold 14 TT's in the same timespan. Fourteen.

I can only speculate as to why, but the TT was never a strong seller in the US. In addition a new, slightly lighter, slightly faster version is already available in Europe with some nifty options that could convince someone to hold out. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

Still, fourteen.