Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i find it ridiculous that you think the miata has no aftermarket or community. i own a brz by the way.

I never said no aftermarket support but meant to say very limited support because there is not enough demand for it, there is only 1 (ONE) big brake kit available for the NC Miata and until recently there was only one Supercharger kit by Flyin Miata(formerly Cosworth brand) and Kraftwerks now offers its own kit.. and that's after 9 consecutive years..

I look at the FT86 and there are tons of FI units, as well as the other things,
Let me repeat that again:

"the most important reason that I made to switch is because the lack/limited amount of aftermarket support, specifically FI kit"

I don't even mention the lack of feedback of the already limited aftermarket parts

[DAEMANO]

Mazda only seems to be releasing Miata's with $6500 in factory performance mods to the press right now (Club package with BBS+Brembo upgrade). Notice that the only U.S. tests are for Miata Club edition's? Take a look on the net.

This is a PR move by Mazda and it's been a smart one as evidenced by the sad lack of objectivity, and critical thinking shown by those in this thread trying to downplay Mazda's move. Mazda easily could have released standard Miata's to the U.S. press for apples to apples comparisons. $26k Miata vs $26k 86. Mazda purposely hasn't. Geee, I wonder why.

There is no doubt that a standard $26k Miata is also a fun car. I also have no doubt that a $26k Miata without the $6500 worth of upgraded tires, LSD, brakes, and wheels would get it's lunch money taken by a base 86 in most performance tests. Mazda knows it too. They've benchmarked everything that could be considered a competitor and know exactly what EXTRA parts a Miata requires to show well vs. their competition. Apparently to show vs. a BRZ it costs $6500. Mazda is trying to build hype and the fanbois are eating it up. I mean, the shit people say...

1. The Club edition Bridgestone Potenza S001's are nearly on par with BRZ's Michelin Primacy HPs. Did someone seriously say this? TireRack places the Miata's ugpraded Potenza's in the Max Performance Summer tire category. These are 3 performance categories above the BRZ's Primacys HP "Grand Touring Summer" tires, and only one performance category below 200TW summer tires like Hankook RS3s.

• Other tires in Max Performance Summer that fit our cars are Michelin Pilot Super Sports, Bridgestone Potenza RE050, and Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric.
• Other tires in the Grand Touring Summer category that fit the BRZ's stock size don't exist. Probably because this category is typically reserved for OEMs. The tires are good for sliding around, but horrible for a performance test. MT knows this and so does everyone on this board.

Put MPSS or another Max Performance Summer tire on a BRZ and how many seconds do you make at Willow? 2.0, we've seen it done.

2. The Miata Club's added LSD wouldn't make much difference for performance. OMFG Really? As mentioned, how many competing drivers run with an open diff? None. Coincidentally, the only way to get an LSD on a Miata is to step up from the $26k base car to a $30K+ Club edition. Meanwhile all $26k 86's get an LSD standard.

3. The Club's Brembo BBK+BBS wheel package wouldn't make for better numbers in the performance portion of the test. Hell yes it would. The loss of unsprung weight improves performance and feel exponentially. The thermal capacity throughout the whole system is a major upgrade. Also would a base Miata's steering feel as lively or be as communicative if the front end had 20 extra lbs of unsprung mass on it? Keep in mind that BBS wheels that come in the package are undoubtedly also stronger than the generic base models wheels. This improves lap times by preventing barrel deformation.

4. The Club's Bilstein shock upgrade wouldn't matter much. The Club doesn't even come with Bilstein's. Bull on both accounts. If upgraded shocks don't help keep the wheels in contact with the ground, why bother upgrading them?

Downplaying all the above is

Indeed both cars are fun and fun undoubtedly don't need to be "fast". I own two of the most fun cars a person can buy (FR-S and Abarth convertible), and I'd call neither "fast". Both are a hoot.

Still it was MT that chose to take the cars to the track for comparison. What I learned from this test was that yes, a 2016 Miata with $6500 in factory performance mods can beat a BRZ around a track by 1.3 seconds.

Sorry but, this isn't "the best we're going to get". This was Mazda's PR team attempt to fool the fanbois and it worked. How disappointing.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

2. The Miata Club's added LSD wouldn't make much difference for performance. OMFG Really? As mentioned, how many competing drivers run with an open diff? None. Coincidentally, the only way to get an LSD on a Miata is to step up from the $26k base car to a $30K+ Club edition. Meanwhile all $26k 86's get an LSD standard.

for the note, my friend with his KW Miata just ordered a new LSD, even the factory LSD cannot keep up with the added power so I cannot even imagine driving without one, specifically at the track..


I think the new Miata is a great car except the power, too bad they were really close to bring a game changer car, all they need is a proper hi-revving 2 liter engine (like a Civic SI or FA20) that can make around ~200hp and that's it not some crazy power since with its weight advantage it would be a clear winner (Even close to Elise territory) but instead they chose to limit the already less powerful HP output (167hp )..
Like I said earlier, I think they were using the FT86 as a benchmark and wanted to go a notch above and leave it there.. Shame :/

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I never said no aftermarket support but meant to say very limited support because there is not enough demand for it, there is only 1 (ONE) big brake kit available for the NC Miata and until recently there was only one Supercharger kit by Flyin Miata(formerly Cosworth brand) and Kraftwerks now offers its own kit.. and that's after 9 consecutive years..

I look at the FT86 and there are tons of FI units, as well as the other things,
Let me repeat that again:

"the most important reason that I made to switch is because the lack/limited amount of aftermarket support, specifically FI kit"

I don't even mention the lack of feedback of the already limited aftermarket parts

how many superchargers do you need? superchargers arent indicative of aftermarket support. more miatas are raced in a day than twins are raced in a year. i can do without crap 1k coilovers and untested aero parts.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by fatoni

how many superchargers do you need? superchargers arent indicative of aftermarket support. more miatas are raced in a day than twins are raced in a year. i can do without crap 1k coilovers and untested aero parts.

And possibly a lot more gokarts raced in a week than Miatas are raced in a year but that still doesn't necessarily mean Miatas have more aftermarket support , it simply means they are cheaper to fix (na miata of course), proper suspension setup, and toss-able . Aftermarket support is a must for a car that begs for power, supercharger and big brake kit was just given for example..

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by glamcem

And possibly a lot more gokarts raced in a week than Miatas are raced in a year but that still doesn't necessarily mean Miatas have more aftermarket support , it simply means they are cheaper to fix (na miata of course), proper suspension setup, and toss-able . Aftermarket support is a must for a car that begs for power, supercharger and big brake kit was just given for example..

okay but the aftermarket for the miata is bigger than the aftermarket than the twins.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by fatoni

okay but the aftermarket for the miata is bigger than the aftermarket than the twins.

WUT? NA,NB, NC combined cannot even come close, are you kidding me?

take a look at how many exhaust manufacturers, suspension systems brake, aero parts available, ..obviously not a lot, look at how many vendors on each discussion forums, you are the first Miata owner who tells me otherwise , and I knew quite a few of them ..
Did you know the fact the whole miataturbo forums exist because most people make their own custom turbo setups so that they share own experience, how-tos and whatnot?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Put MPSS or another Max Performance Summer tire on a BRZ and how many seconds do you make at Willow? 2.0, we've seen it done.

I assume at least part of this post is aimed at me.

1. From the TireRack test at Streets of Willow where the BRZ picks up 2.5 seconds going to Bridgestone RE11A's from OEM, a BMW 328 picks up 0.7 seconds ditching the S001 runflats for a tire in the same category Yoko V105, going from that category it picks up another 1.7 seconds on Yoko AD08's a comparable tire to the RE11A/ZII, RS3 etc. I stand by my statement that the S001's are not a large advantage. Worth a couple tenths over the Primacy? Sure, not a whole second+, you'd pick up a similar amount of lap time upgrading the Miata's as tested rubber as you would the 86's, it'd bring them closer but not a magic bullet. Video source below.

2. LSD is a must, agreed, it's a shame it costs so much more to snag in the Miata.

3. It's not 20 unsprung lbs, it's 10 lbs total, that's 2.5 lbs per corner. Heat capacity is not utilized over one single flying lap and can be managed by a pro driver, OEM brakes would have performed almost identically over a single flying qualifying lap, I'd bet on it. That's how these tests are performed, the BRZ certainly didn't run a 1:51 on it's 5th lap out on stock brakes around Laguna Seca.

4. The Club absolutely comes with Bilsteins and I'd bet it makes a noticeable difference, full on board with you here as well.



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSqWD5BSeoY"]Testing Tires with Subaru BRZ, Ford Mustang & BMW 328i! The Downshift Ep. 65 - YouTube[/ame]

[iag48st]

Randy Pobst's fastest laptime in the BRZ at Streets of Willow was actually a 1:30.32 seconds. Put on same tires as the ND Miata and on a track like SoW, thats probably good for at least 2 seconds.

That being said, I find it weird that in their tire comparison they weren't able to shave any significant time off the lap times in the BRZ. Soo many variables...

[krayzie]

Mazda has to give the press the Club Edition just to have their ND Miata stay relevant in terms of performance tells me it is not a ground breaking game changer.

Toyota and Subaru placed a heavy focus on how they developed the twins platform in great detail right off the bat, which is much more convincing to me on its handling capabilities than Mazda. They even went as far as to equip the car with a low grip tire just to prove their efforts in chassis and suspension R&D is brilliant.

I'm just not impressed until the press reviews a base model Miata against the competition, and I could care less about track times.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by iag48st

Randy Pobst's fastest laptime in the BRZ at Streets of Willow was actually a 1:30.32 seconds. Put on same tires as the ND Miata and on a track like SoW, thats probably good for at least 2 seconds.

That being said, I find it weird that in their tire comparison they weren't able to shave any significant time off the lap times in the BRZ. Soo many variables...

Why post in hypotheticals? I already posted a Tirerack test that had data with the "Max Performance Summer tire" (what is on the Miata) going to the Extreme Performance summers picking up 1.7 seconds when the BRZ goes from Primacy's to the Extreme Performance Summer's it picks up 2.5 seconds.

I'd induce <1 second difference between the S001 and the Primacy's.

Same driver on the same day, different cars, and a billion other factors.

I'll eat my words if there's a better comparison showing the S001's to be more than 1 second superior to the Primacy's.

To be 100% clear, my position is that a $29.5k Club Miata is faster than an 86 from the factory. Do with the $3k leftover on the cheaper BRZ/FR-S what you will, it will likely come out on top if given a base $30k budget, but stock for stock the Miata is faster and it's fair. On top of that, upgrading the tires on the Miata will benefit it nearly as much as it does on the 86.

[Deslock]

Woah... There's no need for all this bickering. Based on the reviews, the ND is a fantastic update to the Miata (the only other cheap, lightweight, reasonably priced, RWD car available).

Each car has strengths and weaknesses, but both are awesome. We should be thankful they exist.

I need more utility so I drive a BRZ. Simple as that.

[SUB-FT86]

This reminds me of the Chevy and Ford guys arguing when both muscle coupes are very similar. I'm glad that the Mx5 and twins represent the lightweight sports car end of it as I care not for heavy piles of crap anymore.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

This reminds me of the Chevy and Ford guys arguing when both muscle coupes are very similar. I'm glad that the Mx5 and twins represent the lightweight sports car end of it as I care not for heavy piles of crap anymore.

Here's hoping the rivalry between the Miata vs. Twins becomes like that of the Mustang vs. Camaro/Firebird.