front and rear sway bar opinions

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by venturaII

I certainly won't be reducing my sway bar rates at any point, that's for sure...

If you properly, and substantially increase spring rates, you can do with softer (or no) sways, but if you're not picking rates based on changing (or losing) the sways I would definitely not want to be reducing the sway bar rates either.

[OmarYasin]

Originally Posted by wparsons

If you properly, and substantially increase spring rates, you can do with softer (or no) sways, but if you're not picking rates based on changing (or losing) the sways I would definitely not want to be reducing the sway bar rates either.

The cusco soft swaybars are not "softer" then the oem ones. Cusco offers 2mm thicker bars for both front and rear. The fronts have an option of going full bar or hollow, rears are only in hollow. Im betting he went with the hollow fronts and rears with a slightly thicker diameter compared to oem.

[wparsons]

If you read the way Cusco words it, they do appear to be softer. It could be a bad translation, or it could be accurate.

[OmarYasin]

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/susp.../sway-bars-93/
Cusco is first on the list. Take a look for yourself. Oem swaybar are 16mm front and 14mm rear.correct me if im wrong.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by wparsons

If you properly, and substantially increase spring rates, you can do with softer (or no) sways, but if you're not picking rates based on changing (or losing) the sways I would definitely not want to be reducing the sway bar rates either.

I don't intend to change spring rates at all, which is why I made the comment. Obviously (or maybe it isn't obvious to everyone..?), increasing spring rates would also reduce the need for sway bar rates in order to maintain a given amount of roll stiffness. I'm keeping the 'soft' OEM spring rates to keep the car compliant on shite roads, and will add roll stiffness with aftermarket bars.

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by venturaII

I don't intend to change spring rates at all, which is why I made the comment. Obviously (or maybe it isn't obvious to everyone..?), increasing spring rates would also reduce the need for sway bar rates in order to maintain a given amount of roll stiffness. I'm keeping the 'soft' OEM spring rates to keep the car compliant on shite roads, and will add roll stiffness with aftermarket bars.

Unless every bump you hit on your "shite" roads hits both sides equally, you will get a jerkier ride with stiffer bars. The reason is, when a car has stiffer bars and hits a bump on just one side, a pothole for instance, the stiffer sway bar prevents the strut from just absorbing the bump by sending the jolt to the other side of the car, which isn't in a pothole, so it twists the whole car. Stiffer struts can help a little, but basically stiffer sways on a lightweight car like this means a worse ride, and your significant other won't like that.

If you are still determined to do it, then get a used seat from a corolla or subaru that fits, add some poly and memory foam on top, and cover the whole thing with a 29$ seat cover. Put that in place of your passenger seat and maybe you won't shake the life out of them the next time you drive your car down a shite road with stiffer sway bars and a passenger in the car. Most cars have seats made like a quality mattress, medium firm with lots of give to them. Our cars have seats like a futon. All cotton, and not much give to them.

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by OmarYasin

The cusco soft swaybars are not "softer" then the oem ones. Cusco offers 2mm thicker bars for both front and rear. The fronts have an option of going full bar or hollow, rears are only in hollow. Im betting he went with the hollow fronts and rears with a slightly thicker diameter compared to oem.

Cusco calls them their "soft" sway bars. The front bar is a solid (edit "hollow") 16mm instead of the stock solid 18mm, and the rear is a hollow 14mm instead of a solid 14mm. The front is 79% of stock tension, and the rear is 73% of stock tension. All the other hollow bars and solid bars out there are stiffer then stock bars. These are the only bars I could find which were softer. After changing out springs, struts, and sway bars, I've found the only way to get a comfortable ride is to start by replacing the seats first. Then tune the suspension to suit your needs.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Unless every bump you hit on your "shite" roads hits both sides equally, you will get a jerkier ride with stiffer bars. The reason is, when a car has stiffer bars and hits a bump on just one side, a pothole for instance, the stiffer sway bar prevents the strut from just absorbing the bump by sending the jolt to the other side of the car, which isn't in a pothole, so it twists the whole car. Stiffer struts can help a little, but basically stiffer sways on a lightweight car like this means a worse ride, and your significant other won't like that.

If you are still determined to do it, then get a used seat from a corolla or subaru that fits, add some poly and memory foam on top, and cover the whole thing with a 29$ seat cover. Put that in place of your passenger seat and maybe you won't shake the life out of them the next time you drive your car down a shite road with stiffer sway bars and a passenger in the car. Most cars have seats made like a quality mattress, medium firm with lots of give to them. Our cars have seats like a futon. All cotton, and not much give to them.

I'm not even sure where to begin with this...

[OmarYasin]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Cusco calls them their "soft" sway bars. The front bar is a solid 16mm instead of the stock solid 18mm, and the rear is a hollow 14mm instead of a solid 14mm. The front is 79% of stock tension, and the rear is 73% of stock tension. All the other hollow bars and solid bars out there are stiffer then stock bars. These are the only bars I could find which were softer. After changing out springs, struts, and sway bars, I've found the only way to get a comfortable ride is to start by replacing the seats first. Then tune the suspension to suit your needs.

http://www.fastscions.com/cusco-fron...965311A16.aspx
Where did u get the information that the cusco is indeed softer then the oem one?

[KoolBRZ]

Bottom line; suspension is meant to keep the tires on the ground and control weight shift, not provide comfort. Softer suspension and sway bars can keep the tires on the ground better, up to a point. That point usually takes a track to reach, because you really have to push it. Softer suspension allows a lot more weight shift, so stiffer suspension is recommended for the track to prevent as much of that weight shift as possible. So setup your suspension to control weight shift and keep traction, and if you want comfort, replace the seats.

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by OmarYasin

http://www.fastscions.com/cusco-fron...965311A16.aspx
Where did u get the information that the cusco is indeed softer then the oem one?

Here's the Cusco page.
http://www.cuscousainc.com/vehicle-r...&modelname=470
It doesn't say it's softer, but it does give the percentage, and the thicker bars all have a percentage in excess of 100%. Do the math. Other sites just call them the soft bars. Just checked out the site you listed. To find out the truth, go to the source. That site is wrong. 79% would be much more than slightly stiffer, 21% on the other hand, is a slight difference. They don't understand that 100% is the same as. I was wrong about the front bars however, I called them solid, when they are really hollow also. I really like them. They feel much springier than the OEM bars.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Unless every bump you hit on your "shite" roads hits both sides equally, you will get a jerkier ride with stiffer bars. The reason is, when a car has stiffer bars and hits a bump on just one side, a pothole for instance, the stiffer sway bar prevents the strut from just absorbing the bump by sending the jolt to the other side of the car, which isn't in a pothole, so it twists the whole car. Stiffer struts can help a little, but basically stiffer sways on a lightweight car like this means a worse ride, and your significant other won't like that.

HUGE over simplification. You also have to compare sway bar stiffness to spring stiffness. You'll get more cross talk with soft springs than you will with stiffer springs (assuming the same sway bars). Sway bars work on their ability to limit independent wheel motion, as the spring rates go up their effectiveness goes down because the aren't strong enough to resist the stiffer springs.

That said, I don't find there is that much cross talk at all on stock springs/sways, I've been in WAY worse cars that ride much softer stock.

Also, cross talk won't make the ride jerkier. What will happen is if you hit a bump on one side, the other side will feel it a bit, BUT in a relatively stiffly sprung car both sides will feel it anyway because the car is going to be lifted up on the side hitting the bump. You also have to remember there's only ~2.5" of bump travel stock, so any bump bigger than that is going to lift that side of the car too.

The worst side effect in an extreme case is sudden loss of traction at that end of the car if you hit a bump. If you want to feel it, find a parking lot with a ton of room, and a bump you can hit mid corner with just the inside wheel. You'll feel the front skip a bit as the outside wheel loses a bit of traction.

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

If you are still determined to do it, then get a used seat from a corolla or subaru that fits, add some poly and memory foam on top, and cover the whole thing with a 29$ seat cover. Put that in place of your passenger seat and maybe you won't shake the life out of them the next time you drive your car down a shite road with stiffer sway bars and a passenger in the car. Most cars have seats made like a quality mattress, medium firm with lots of give to them. Our cars have seats like a futon. All cotton, and not much give to them.

Why on earth did you buy a sports car if you want it to ride like a camry? I just don't understand your "logic" at all.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Bottom line; suspension is meant to keep the tires on the ground and control weight shift, not provide comfort. Softer suspension and sway bars can keep the tires on the ground better, up to a point. That point usually takes a track to reach, because you really have to push it. Softer suspension allows a lot more weight shift, so stiffer suspension is recommended for the track to prevent as much of that weight shift as possible. So setup your suspension to control weight shift and keep traction, and if you want comfort, replace the seats.

Where do you come up with this crap?

Spring rates for ultimate grip aren't based on where you're driving, they're based on how much grip the tires can generate and how much weight they have to support. Mechanical traction (not aero grip) needs the tires on the pavement, which means you need bump (and droop) travel. You'll have the most traction with the softest rates that properly control body motion. Stickier tires generally mean stiffer spring rates, but it's not always black and white.

How much body motion needs to be controlled depends on a ton of things. Cars with good camber curves can get away with more roll (softer springs) than cars with poor (or no) camber curves, etc etc etc.

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Why on earth did you buy a sports car if you want it to ride like a camry? I just don't understand your "logic" at all.

I'd call a 1991 3000 GT VR4 a sports car. I don't want it to ride like a camry, I just want a seat that respects me as a human being. My VR4 was MUCH more comfortable than this car, in part because it had a MUCH more comfortable seat. It was also a much heavier, more powerful car. That said, I believe Toyota and Subaru could sell a lot more of these wonderful cars if they would just make the seats more comfortable. Try smacking your fist into the seat bottom of this car, then into the seat bottom of ANY other car. The backrest is fine, the suspension in a seat comes from the seat bottom. It's the difference between sleeping on a futon and a temper-pedic.