Scion FT-86 FR-S

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

see.. hes completly fucked in the head and filled with prejudice.. there is no reasoning with a brainwashed ricer fanboy.. scion tc is the new civic..

Wasn't it you that was talking about Hating cars stock because people modded them? I stumbled on another with you commenting about wanting 400wtq out of your FT-86.

Contradict yourself much? I'm the one fucked in the head? You make up rules and shit as you go to fit your argument but fail at ever post to make a point.

NOTHING I have stated was an OPINION or FALSE. 300whp/300wtq can be had for Cheap $'s. Go buy a used turbo kit, or get a tuner kit and pick your management/fuel setup. That's $3500 bucks max on the build and that is enough whp to walk on an Evo, 350z, STI, WRX, S2k....etc. I've fucking done it with LESS than 300whp. Go to the drag strip throw on some good tires, you will be looking at high 12s with a good driver, those fucking cars don't run that stock sorry (2008+ 350z will just about do that though). Your own prejudice can't even comprehend the difference between an Opinion and a Fact. GTFO. I'm tired of being Mr. Nice guy with you. I don't give 2 rat shits if you like a Scion or not. It's not going to fucking stop me from doing what I do. Get the fuck over it...People mod fucking cars...end of story.

There are 350+hp N/A 2az tC drag cars running 9's.

There is a 1000+whp boosted 2az AWD Time Attack tC

There is a 900+whp FWD boosted 2az with 10 track records

There are 4-700whp street driven tC's

There is a 600whp RWD drift tC (not fucking motor swapped)

I have my own accomplishments with my personal tC against other drivers in other cars

I don't give a shit what a couple of people on a forum (who don't even know shit about a tC) on the internet says about a 2az or a tC when stats like those exist. Build your own shit or leave it stock, I don't give a good damn. Geesh....Noobs are all the same.

[Dimman]

What you're not getting is that people want to mod better cars.

If it's about dollars to performance, my car rapes yours. 13.7 @ 99mph for under $4000 for the car. Mods were nothing but an intake and exhaust. It's been modded more since then.

If I spent the amount of money that a new Scion costs on my car, I will be in the 9s.

That isn't the point.

But can you tell me what our point is?

No. You can't.

Go be happy with your fast Scion.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dimman

What you're not getting is that people want to mod better cars.

If it's about dollars to performance, my car rapes yours. 13.7 @ 99mph for under $4000 for the car. Mods were nothing but an intake and exhaust. It's been modded more since then.

If I spent the amount of money that a new Scion costs on my car, I will be in the 9s.

That isn't the point.

But can you tell me what our point is?

No. You can't.

Go be happy with your fast Scion.

And a junk yard bought CRX would rape you and I, but do I want to buy a junker CRX to build....NO. Because I don't prefer to. Preference....Preference.....Preference. That goes along the lines of....I don't give a damn how much you spent to go the same speed, cause I don't prefer to build what you chose to build the same way you don't prefer to build what I built. It's not your money I'm spending. damn...where is the unsubscribe button? Cause these talking points are to stupid to reply to anymore. /last comment in this thread for me...Deuces.

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Wasn't it you that was talking about Hating cars stock because people modded them? I stumbled on another with you commenting about wanting 400wtq out of your FT-86.

Contradict yourself much? I'm the one fucked in the head? You make up rules and shit as you go to fit your argument but fail at ever post to make a point.
blah blah blah...

please provide a quote
i used to love civics since they had so much potential before every 3rd person bought one..
i used to love r33/r34 skylines before everyone started buying the gtst and putting gtr badges and doing burnouts at trafic lights (i still love r34 vspecII since hoons cant afford them )
also what do you mean i hate cars that are stock since everyone mods them??
i hate ricer boys that buy a piece of shit and sink money in to it to make it better.. id rather buy a 2nd hand 370z base packige than a brand new tc any day of the week.. difference is the 370 will GO without voiding warrenty, and every dollar spent on it will give a better return in performance and power than a ticking timebomb NA factory tC that has a a turbo strapped to it..
do go on im enjoying seeing you humiliate your self by making up shit

and ur right your not spending anyone else's money. your spending your money, your families money on a tC.. im sure junior would love a ps3.. oh wait daddy jsut blew another g on a turbo thats gonna fuck something else up in a few months

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

please provide a quote
i used to love civics since they had so much potential before every 3rd person bought one..
i used to love r33/r34 skylines before everyone started buying the gtst and putting gtr badges and doing burnouts at trafic lights (i still love r34 vspecII since hoons cant afford them )
also what do you mean i hate cars that are stock since everyone mods them??
i hate ricer boys that buy a piece of shit and sink money in to it to make it better.. id rather buy a 2nd hand 370z base packige than a brand new tc any day of the week.. difference is the 370 will GO without voiding warrenty, and every dollar spent on it will give a better return in performance and power than a ticking timebomb NA factory tC that has a a turbo strapped to it..
do go on im enjoying seeing you humiliate your self by making up shit

and ur right your not spending anyone else's money. your spending your money, your families money on a tC.. im sure junior would love a ps3.. oh wait daddy jsut blew another g on a turbo thats gonna fuck something else up in a few months

I know I was the one that made the analogy that if I bought a tC (or more on topic, if hypothetically Scion got and made the FT/R-86/S a boring, flashy, rolling sound system) that I would hate its boring-ness and feel compelled to immediately spend an ass-load of money just to not hate the car.

[Ryuu0u]

Bred to be sports car vs. inventing one
Id personally rather start in the right place but thats just me.

[70NYD]

but if, hypotheticaly speaking, scion does release the car and makes it boring, then why would you spend that much money one it in the 1st place. thats my point to start of with against dragotinis point.. you can go and buy a kia cerato coup and spend a fuck load of money on that and that perticular one will be good.. but it doesnt mean that the kia is a good brand..

[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by Ryuu0u

Bred to be sports car vs. inventing one
Id personally rather start in the right place but thats just me.

Everyone has their own preference. Is there anything wrong with that? Not at all!

In theory, starting with a better platform (ie a racebred car vs non-racebred) will most definitely give you the potential to be faster, well, BETTER, in every way than a car that starts off lower, in terms of performance.

We all know this. Nobody is arguing that fact.

However, some of us like the idea of a sleeper (ie me) and some like the idea of building something into something entirely different, and better, than most people's expectations of that thing.

Even so, let's look at one fact so that I can better illustrate my point. Around '05-'06 in the Solo2 Nationals, SM category, the #1 ranking car was a brutally modified BMW M3. It had a damn good driver and the car was completely stripped and built for autocross. Sounds about right, yes? That generation of M3 is a phenomenal car, good from the get go. No arguments about that. Now, the guy who took up the #2 slot? It was an EG Civic Hatch. For those of you who don't know, an EG is from 92-95. Again, just like the M3, this car was built, by it's owner, specifically for autocross. He also was a damn good driver. The difference in each driver/car on the same course was a lot less than a second. But after a long discussion with the driver of the EG on my last Honda forum, he confessed that the M3 was simply a "better" car than his EG.

That being said, which car was designed for really good performance from the beginning? The M3, right? Of course it was. But so were all the other M3's competing in the same National's event that got SLOWER times than the EG Civic, AND along with all of the other purpose built, non-Honda's who also raced!!

My point is that YES - starting off with a 'better' (ie relatively MORE performance oriented) platform will always yield a better potential for performance than a car that started out with relatively less performance oriented aspirations. However, custom modification can close that performance gap much more than you would think, and maybe even a lot cheaper than you would think as well. The Solo2 Nationals is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The EG certainly has an inherent disadvantage when compared to the M3, it simply was not designed to perform at such extreme levels - but after some modification it sure got pretty damn close to the M3.

All this being said I must state that I am a firm believer in the saying, "Fast. Reliable. Cheap. --Pick two." Building a solid performance car will cost you, but still, perhaps not quite as much as one might think.

Of course there are limitations to my hypothesis. Some cars, like say the Smart FourTwo, will NEVER be as good on even a driver intensive HPDE run as something with a longer wheel base, say a current generation EVO with *slight* mods. Even if the Smart car had ultra suspension mods, an even stiffer frame, busting out 400HP with a custom AWD drivetrain, it will NEVER be able to corner at high speeds as effectively as the EVO. Such is an inherent design flaw, in terms of performance, with the (not so)Smart Car. That being said, if you or someone you love starts out by building a car like that (which has HUGE, inherent disadvantages) with dreams of beating corvettes in the twisties, then that person is an absolute moron.

Everyone contributing in this thread knows the above information. It's nothing new, we know it. Personally, I really don't think Dragonitti is trying to say his tC is a better platform than another car. He's just saying that with performance mods, it might actually be better than you think it is. And there's a really good feeling that comes from outperforming a higher performance car on the track with your less expensive "econo-box". Also maybe, just maybe, the tC isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is - perhaps it's a cost effective platform to start with (along with other not-so-performance-oriented cars out there).

Of course we all know the tC isn't anything special in stock form. But you gotta admit, even today's basic cars stand on the shoulders of giants, so to speak, as much of their suspension geometry and solid frames are based upon engineering that was originally thought from the performance car world. That being said, like it or not, even today's basic cars aren't actually too bad a platform to reconfigure into a performance machine. Of course it's not gonna be as good as the other guys' thorough-bred, fire breathing Nissan GTR that's been modded to pump out 700+WHP and rides on rails, but you may just be in for a surprise at how close that "basic" car can actually get to the GTR....

That is all I have to say. And in saying so, I'm truly not trying to discount ANYTHING anyone has said before hand, nor am I disagreeing with anyone in particular. I think pretty much everyone has expressed excellent points that have a substantial amount of validity to them.


EDIT: Just so everyone knows, I'm in the process of moving to more substantial, glorified, "performance-oriented" cars. I personally like the idea of starting out higher than what I did previously. I am also doing this to avoid rice. In addition to that, as I am beginning to get older I like having just a bit more luxury and comfort at hand as well. This and I hate having my car in the same category as the idiot revving his piece of shit ghetto rigged engine at every damn stop light, when mine is SOOO much different than his even though it's the same make and model. Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

Okay I'm really done blabbering now. Promise.

[Dimman]

Yeah, the point that he wasn't getting is that HE was the one that made his car fast. Not Scion/Toyota.

Scion doesn't have a good track record with real performance out of the box.

Plus Toyota is gunshy about lawsuits, and if Dragonitti's attitude carries over to tC drivers that don't have his skill AND (hypothetically) Scion gets this fR (or whatever they'll name it), Toyota will likely dial in more than an acceptable level of under-steer, and put in non-defeatable electronic nannies to avoid the (driver ability) problems that they had with the SW20 MR2.

What that means to ME, is that if the FT/R-86/S gets unreasonably dumbed down as a Scion, I will have to (aside from dealing with knob salespeople trying to up-sell me on sound systems and stupid expensive 'TRD' add ons) spend a bunch of money un-fucking the car. Springs, dampers and rear anti-roll bar minimum. Worst case, I have to make adjustable control arms to get it re-aligned to my liking, and replace the 'comfort' bushings with Delrin or spherical bearings.

I have a project car for all that.

This car should be good enough out of the box to enjoy and run hard, without spending more money on it. I don't want to be bored of the FT/R-86/S in a week.

That is my feeling about the Scion issue. More likely to 'comfort' and 'safety' the car for youth that don't know any better.

[mrtodd]

^ I see what you're saying now... And it makes perfect sense.

I guess I'm not so worried because I'm expecting to make changes on my FT-86 no matter what. However, I can completely understand the presence of mind not having such things to be necessary with the FT-86.

I think it's safe to say that WE ALL hope that Toyota doesn't screw this up...

...I guess time will tell, yes?

[Matador]

[OldSkoolToys]

lol matador, nice troll image.


I've said it in the past, I'll say it again: Badge means little, I just want the car to perform. In the end, at its heeaarttt....errr, wait, at its brain, its a Toyota.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

lol matador, nice troll image.


I've said it in the past, I'll say it again: Badge means little, I just want the car to perform. In the end, at its heeaarttt....errr, wait, at its brain, its a Toyota.

Ah... Takumi. But technically its 'brain' is mostly Subaru.