Odd one out; my 2nd test drive

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Ryephile, thanks for sharing the experience! You are not alone in what you say BTW. Iv been reading some owner blogs of GT86 and BRZ in japan, and many have stated very similar feelings. One reoccurring theme is, "The car feels incomplete". Meaning the car has all the right qualities but hits the mark just short of amazing.

Even if you skip out during this time on getting the car. Don't be a stranger! your still one of us!

What Josh said.

I'll wait it out. If I'm going to invest 30k in something. It better be damn amazing.

[Phaedrus29]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I haven't driven the CR, but both AP1 and AP2 versions of the S2000 are big favorites of mine. I would say the BRZ's handling is more balanced at the limit, however the S2k is more visceral and communicative.



I wouldn't say it's bad, just not as amazing as the Miata, P-cars, etc..

Have you driven the FRS? I'm wondering if you'd perceive something different in the handling.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Phaedrus29

Have you driven the FRS? I'm wondering if you'd perceive something different in the handling.

I was kind of afraid to say it but I wonder this as well. Could the small suspension tweaks make that big of a difference? I have heard many reviewers say there was something lacking with the BRZ's handling but I don't think I've heard any say the same for the FR-S. Although, with that said, I think what he found displeasing is likely more fundamental with the car's design. But a good set of coilovers would probably do wonders for this car.

[Xlr8]

Very good post. Good to hear from someone who is not beholden to advertisers and manufactures. Honest thoughts about a potential car purchase looking past all the hype. I like it. To me cars, like motorcycles, women, churches, etc. are not perfect. There is never a perfect anything for everyone. It's a matter of personal preferences and compromises that you can live with. If it needs a little tuning or a nip tuck etc. and it's economically feasible then so be it. Get what you want and can live with.

[SUB-FT86]

Rye, thanks for this informative review. It sounds like a RWD RSX to me with all that you have mentioned. I love my RSX but hate the engine.

[BRZ4me]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

I wonder if that high speed cornering instability you get is from the MacPherson strut design. Every MacPherson strut car I've driven gives me a floaty feeling from the front at higher speeds which I dislike.

The Porsche Cayman uses "modified" MacPherson struts - front & rear. Maybe the modified part makes all the difference, or the fact that most of the steel has been replaced by forged aluminum?

Check out this recent Cayman R suspension walk around.

[DEC1]

hmmmm... I don't have anywhere near the experience or driving chops to do such a detailed review...but...I'm guessing that for most of us those subtleties won't be sensed or missed.
Kudos to you for basing your decision on the driving dynamics important to you. It feels to me, however, that you are measuring a table wine with standards required of a master vintage.
And honestly I'm having a hard time reconciling your review against all the others from similarly (or perhaps more) seasoned writers and reviewers...like MT's article that calls the BRZ #1 against FRS, VW GTI, Mustang, Miata, and Genesis (which came in last btw)
In any case, good luck in your search for perfection.

[Rampage]

Good honest review. All cars are a compromise in some way to reach the largest audience possible. It is apparent to me that Toyota and Subaru made this car as good as they possibly could without alienating too many potential buyers. They also made it very clear that they expect some buyers to use their design as a starting point that can be tailored to what the customer really wants through the use of aftermarket parts.

In its current form, this car is apparently not what the OP is looking for and that is fine. For those of you that are buying into the "son of the AE86" marketing hype please remember that the AE86 was a pretty mundane car as it came from the factory. The FR-S/BRZ is a very good car directly from the factory but it is also one that can be easily (but not cheaply) modified to suit the whims of a multitude of enthusiast drivers. Some people will be happy to keep it stock. Many others will not.

[eikond]

I just typed out a long post, but somehow the system logged me out before I could finalize it..

So here's my shortened version..

I'm really glad I got to meet Ryan.. he's a great guy. It was really neat to get to talk cars with someone so knowledgible and experienced.

He clearly has a very refined taste in sports cars.. He's dialed in to the physics of handling and suspension in a way that very few BRZ owners and even testers are. So the analogy from DEC1 about the table wine vs. master vintage is a very good description.

Sounds like Ryan likes the car, but would prefer to wait for an upgraded version before he makes the purchase. I'm sure he won't be the only one to do that.

The point is.. Don't take offense to the fact that he has some criticisms of the vehicle. Understand that he is coming from a different experience perspective than most BRZ shoppers. He drives and races an Exige... the fact that he put a deposit down on a BRZ and really strongly considered buying it should be quite a compliment to the BRZ.

As for me.. I always try to keep price in mind when I think about the quality and performance of a car. It seems to me that it's the best in it's class in the mid $20's range. I think another $10k in mods could make it the best in it's class in the mid $30's, and could surpass most cars in the $40's as well. I'm in it for the platform.. I think the BRZ has a great platform and the rest of the details are all price vs. performance decisions that can be made in the future. Clearly Subaru built this car expecting people to modify it. The question is.. Can you create a better product with $10k in modifications than Subaru will offer for $10k more when they bring out an STI version? I'd like to think so..

[grst1]

Excellent review! Further confirms that BRZ will make ONE great DD for me one I pick it up on Wednesday.

[Racecomp Engineering]

The door is always open to try an RCE Spec Subaru BRZ.

- Andrew

[86'd]

Originally Posted by eikond

I just typed out a long post, but somehow the system logged me out before I could finalize it..

So here's my shortened version..

I'm really glad I got to meet Ryan.. he's a great guy. It was really neat to get to talk cars with someone so knowledgible and experienced.

He clearly has a very refined taste in sports cars.. He's dialed in to the physics of handling and suspension in a way that very few BRZ owners and even testers are. So the analogy from DEC1 about the table wine vs. master vintage is a very good description.

Sounds like Ryan likes the car, but would prefer to wait for an upgraded version before he makes the purchase. I'm sure he won't be the only one to do that.

The point is.. Don't take offense to the fact that he has some criticisms of the vehicle. Understand that he is coming from a different experience perspective than most BRZ shoppers. He drives and races an Exige... the fact that he put a deposit down on a BRZ and really strongly considered buying it should be quite a compliment to the BRZ.

As for me.. I always try to keep price in mind when I think about the quality and performance of a car. It seems to me that it's the best in it's class in the mid $20's range. I think another $10k in mods could make it the best in it's class in the mid $30's, and could surpass most cars in the $40's as well. I'm in it for the platform.. I think the BRZ has a great platform and the rest of the details are all price vs. performance decisions that can be made in the future. Clearly Subaru built this car expecting people to modify it. The question is.. Can you create a better product with $10k in modifications than Subaru will offer for $10k more when they bring out an STI version? I'd like to think so..

I'd say most definitely.

This car is unlike, say the WRX, where all the suspension mods in the world wouldn't make it handle as well as say, an S2000.

You're right though, Ryan sounds like he knows his stuff a little too much.

When you're so discerning, it can sometimes be a curse.

[Turbowned]

It seems to me that the BRZ out-of-the-box is better than anything else out there for less than $50k. The aftermarket can and will handle any minor shortcomings.

Half the reason I'm buying the car is so I can have fun modifying it! I could've leased another Audi S4 which performance-wise, comfort-wise, and quality-wise blows the Subie out of the water but I can't mod it and also, it's like a GT-R or Evo in that it could be fast even if you had no idea how to drive properly. It also costs twice as much as the BRZ so, yeah...

So it's no Exige... that was to be expected. But I would never want to drive an Exige every day, either!

[Ryephile]

Thanks everyone for the warm reception. I'm just trying to be as honest and helpful as possible.

Originally Posted by Bristecom

I wonder if that high speed cornering instability you get is from the MacPherson strut design. Every MacPherson strut car I've driven gives me a floaty feeling from the front at higher speeds which I dislike.

I wouldn't go blaming the Mac struts. They don't inherently contribute any particular characteristics per se; it's the total design and the engineers' placement of the pivot points and damper curves that combine to create the feel of the car. IMO the BRZ's fundamental layout and design is sound. If I had to affix blame somewhere specific it would be the damper tuning. I'm confident a quality set of well-tuned coil-overs would transform the car and give it a well-planted feel. That's just my hunch; I'd love to collaborate with aftermarket tuners to sort out the car, it'll just have to be from the outside looking in instead of with a horse in the race.

Originally Posted by DEC1

......
And honestly I'm having a hard time reconciling your review against all the others from similarly (or perhaps more) seasoned writers and reviewers...like MT's article that calls the BRZ #1 against FRS, VW GTI, Mustang, Miata, and Genesis (which came in last btw)
In any case, good luck in your search for perfection.

I appreciate the compliments. I can't expect to be compared to professional media personalities, so I'm flattered you even went there. What I feel important to point out, however, is that MT article kept all the cars solely on the racetrack. I can relate to the BRZ feeling confident and precise at the limit, however there are precious few media articles portraying how the BRZ feels driven rationally on normal public roads, and in that typical environment many cars can feel differently than when driven in anger on the track.

Originally Posted by eikond

[snip]I'm really glad I got to meet Ryan.. he's a great guy. It was really neat to get to talk cars with someone so knowledgible and experienced.

.....

Sounds like Ryan likes the car, but would prefer to wait for an upgraded version before he makes the purchase. I'm sure he won't be the only one to do that. ....

It was excellent to meet you too, and I hope we can hang out again in the future! For the record I do appreciate the car for what it is, and I do think it'll put a smile on the face of many drivers and enthusiasts.

If I had a wish list of what to tweak on the BRZ, it would go something like this:
*Modest supercharger setup with associated intake and exhaust to offer more and sexier engine music along with about 40 LbFt more torque across the board.
*Something along the lines of KW Variant 2 coilovers to give the chassis more control and a better ride on rough surfaces. A bit lower ride height so the stance looks good too, assuming it doesn't kill the roll-center geometry. Whiteline correction kits if need be.
*Fixed wheel offset so it doesn't have the dreaded "Mustang tuck". Don't need hella-flush, just a more balanced aesthetic.

Originally Posted by armythug

Honest review I can appreciate that. So which other cars do you have in mind that are better? Which other cars would you consider owning?

Tough question! I don't think there's anything better per se anywhere near the price range. I went and drove a Coyote-engine Mustang GT and that was a blast but the scale of that car is simply too big for me, and the ergonomics are archaic. I also love the Corvette but the interior is embarrassing. The Miata is always on my list but I'm going to wait it out and see what the ND is going to become, as the NC is my least favorite generation. I love the Boxster and Cayman, however buying a new one is financial suicide and buying a used one is a crap shoot for reliability. Basically the only sane way to own one is an extended warranty CPO, which makes it the kind of car I'd rather drive a friends than actually put in my garage. The biggest tempt out there is the possibility of the VW Bluesport. Mid-engine, convertible, and turbo-Diesel pretty much checks every box of awesomeness...but it's vaporware at the moment.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that a BRZ STI and/or FR-S TRD come to fruition, or the aftermarket makes a legitimately good supercharger kit [calling BOE!] that gives the FA20 the grunt it deserves.


whew, long winded!
Cheers,
Ryan