Dealers

[michaelahess]

All but 1 dealer in my area are owned by the same person. It's a monopoly but nobody seems to care, they regularly tack on 2-4k on even a basic corolla!

I agree 100% that dealers need to go away. Direct buy is the best method, then the manufacturers are competing with the other manufacturers, so competition won't go away, it will simply move from the dealer to the manufacturer.

The ONLY downside to this model is being able to do test drives. But if the manufacturer simply opens a single "Dealership" for every 20 normal ones, that problem goes out the window, and the costs will PLUMMET! Both for the consumer and the manufacturer, kick backs and what not will go away!

The way it would work:

Each manufacturers dealership would have a comprehensive collection of demo cars, no need for much stock.

A consumer will schedule a test drive of what they like on-line, come in, do the drive.

If they like the car, order it up or pick it up if in stock (similar to how it works in many other countries.)

This has the HUGE advantage of allowing the consumer to get EXACTLY what they want. I'd bet 90% of buyers don't get what they really want, they settle for a lot vehicle with more or less crap than they wanted to begin with.

Blame it on America's desire for instant gratification, but if buyers saw the alternative, I'm sure they'd wait a few weeks for the RIGHT car.

BTW, so far my Subaru dealer has been great, nothing to complain about as of yet, other than updates of course lol! So I'm not against anyone in general, just the current model.

Edit: Oh yeah, the entire cost structure of keeping vehicles on car lots will go away as well, the manufacturer owns the cars on the lot so they don't need to pay all the associated interest fees and whatnot to keep them there. The longer that shitty corolla sits on the lot, the less the dealer makes, so the more they try to mark it up. Putting an end to that would be HUGE.

[mines13]

Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman

Mines, I've probably owned more cars in my life than you've ever driven. Only a tiny, tiny portion of those cars were bought from individuals, so yes... I have a ton of experience being on the purchasing side of a sales desk. Have all car dealers I've ever worked with been assholes? Nope. There was one... ONE... that didn't make me feel utterly dirty by doing business with him and his dealership. (Mind you I'm not saying that it was a great and happy buying experience, but that it was simply on par with a purchase somewhere like Macy's or Subway). As for the others? Off the top of my head I can easily think of 10 dealerships... ten... I had to do business with, on the other hand, that left me with a feeling like I'd had to entertain an admitted pedophile at family dinner. Those are just the really bad experiences that stand out in my mind. And don't give me that "just go to another dealer" crap; when you live in the midwest, and there's only four Subaru dealers within a four hour drive of you, and three of them are owned by the same people... shopping around isn't an option. (Not that it would matter much; I love Subaru's dearly, but have yet to walk out of one of their dealerships without wanting to punch somebody in the face).

Hell of a claim to make about someone you have never met. I purchased my SRT-4 in '03 new and purchased my S2000 new in '05. Both experiences went just fine. Bought my S2000 for invoice, no "undercoating" extended warranties, etc. Neither experience was negative or left a poor taste in my mouth. I went to purchase an Evolution 8 some years back, didn't really like the deal so I walked on it, I did not feel like I was being "screwed" I just didn't like the deal. I will not speculate on your car purchasing history simply because I know nothing of it.

That last line may be more of a commentary on yourself then the "evil" dealerships that surround your immediate area, seems like a lot but hey, it's possible. One often gets out of something what they put in to it.

You're not seeing the forest for the trees: I don't begrudge salesmen a profit, it's HOW they make their profit that pisses me off. Misleading individuals about availability of cars. Playing the whole "well I can get that info for you, just let me get your number and email address first..." bullshit game. The aforementioned $300 wax jobs and $500 applications of Armor-all. This is all bullshit profiteering off of uninformed people, usually under high-pressure sales tactics. And what if you are informed? Do you know how many dealerships I've had to get positively ugly with the sales staff to the point of walking out mid-purchase because they won't take "No" for an answer on a lot of that crap? More than 50% of the dealerships I've purchased at. More than half. And you wonder why we hate on the dealership model? Most salesmen don't know the correct horsepower rating of the cars they sell, but treat you like an idiot for not falling for their stupid markup crap. Again, I'm speaking from a helluva lot more purchasing experience than most of the people on here.

You make the assumption or at least are implying that all salesman do this, I think many would take offense. Most even. Regardless, you can always say no to add-ons, if being offered these things makes you want to "punch somebody in the face" or "get positively ugly with the sales staff" then maybe you need to identify in yourself what would spark such a reaction to something to trivial and insignificant that it would make you violent and seek some help. My SRT-4 had a markup on it, I told him I would buy the car today but I would pay no more then MSRP (right when the car was released). I left with the car, at MSRP. I never got billigerent or physically violent, I just said we can desk this deal today at MSRP they saw that I was serious, not there to **** around and they gave me a fair deal.

I'm speaking from a helluva lot more purchasing experience than most of the people on here.

I did not know it was a competition, but congratulations. I would not even know where you began to determine that to be a fact. But I will take your word for it.

As for dealers on this forum taking it personally, how can I put this... Speaking as a purchaser, we don't hate you, per se... we hate your job. It's like the guy who ran Saddam's rape-rooms. I'm sure he was a nice guy: called his mom on weekends, had a family, maybe even scrap-booked. Doesn't excuse the fact that his job was running freakin' rape-rooms!!! Same situation with you guys: I don't care how honest you think you are in your business dealings, you're still nothing more than a middle-man put there as a result of some stupidly misguided Federal trade laws. I want to be able to walk into a car showroom, get honest answers as to what it will take to get exactly what I'm looking for, give them money, receive car. That's IT!!! Scion's getting close to that with their Pure Pricing scheme, but even some dealers (there's that word again) are managing to mess that up.

What? I think it is a bit of the stretch to compare a car salesman at any level, to a guy that runs a rape den. If I sold cars, I would be a bit offended.

As for the getting a deal done with minimal static, you can. I have and people do it every day.

So like Ash was asking: what has the dealership model done that's GOOD for the consumer?

I believe competition is good for the consumer, as I stated earlier. It is not a matter of what is good or is not good. There is what is good for you as the individual buyer and what is not good for you as the individual buyer. There is always an alternative. Do not be so angry, we are all enthusiasts here.

[YukiHachiRoku]

You guys need to match the following two movies:

1) Used Cars
2) The Goods: Live Hard Sell Hard

I sold cars for a couple years in the early 2000's and the first movie I mentioned was actually my training video. LOL It was the hardest job I ever had, and my experiences were very colorful to say the least. Sometimes I look back and can't believe some of the sleezy shit I pulled. I actually threw in the towel and resigned myself from auto sales when my concience was bugging me so much that I was so stressed out and had trouble sleeping at night.

So I don't blame a lot of people here for being paranoid about dealerships and thier tactics. As the guy selling the car, I also had pleasant and horrific deals go down. I once got so pissed off at this family once trying to buy a Mazda 3 for thier son, all they did was grind me for like a week, and during a sales weekend came in when I had a bunch of customers, and I totally did not want to deal with there bullshit, so I got really rude to them, and I think it was then they realized I wasn't playing with them anymore, and they finally bought the car...

When I was putting my deposit down for the FR-S the internet fleet sales manager offered me a job, but I was like "no thanks" lol... (I'll probably tip her $100 for being so cool about everything and the extra mile she went for me)

sorry for the Wall-O-Text

[thill]

Honestly, I think some people take this way too personal and probably have a chip on their shoulder (and in many cases, rightfully so) due to past experience.

Since 2000, between me and my wife, we have owned 7 brand new vehicles. For six of them I sent out email to local dealers within a 50 mile radius or so of the car I was interested in. I would then narrow it down to the best two or three and call them on the phone to get their final price and get, in writing, the OTD price of the vehicle including all dealer fees and taxes.

I then setup an appointment, walk into the dealer with my email, test drive the car and make sure it is the car I want, and do the paperwork. Yes, 90% of the time they try to get you to buy some paint protection, Lo-Jack, etc. but just be polite and firm. I always tell them that I have done my research and 100% am not going to buy any dealer add-ons or extended warranties. Before they even launch into their sales pitch. Thanks, but no thanks. I just want the car at the price that was agreed to in the email. That's it. Thank you very much.

Works very well. If they are still pushy or try to change the terms of the deal, just walk away.

Just use a tool like Truecar as reference and doublecheck the manufacturers website for any incentives or rebates. It is so much more stress free for everybody this way.

And if you have a trade-in, you need to do your homework. Dealers make a lot of money off trade-ins and many of them will try to lowball you. That said, don't expect private party sale price on a dealer trade-in. It is a two-way street and dealers have to make money too. You can always sell private party and will almost always come out thousands of dollars ahead.

[Klinn]

Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman

So like Ash was asking: what has the dealership model done that's GOOD for the consumer?

The best justification I’ve heard from dealers is for those situations when a buyer needs a new vehicle but doesn’t really know what would best suit his/her needs. Not everybody is an enthusiast like us, researching new models and packages and options.

Now, whether most salesmen will truly act in the customer’s best interest, as opposed to pushing whatever vehicles his manager is trying to unload that week and maximizing his bonus, well, that’s not a debate I want to get into. We’ve all heard the stories one way or the other.

But for a salesman to really provide that kind of service, they would have to cover multiple brands and can say, no, for you sir, the Chrysler minivan would be better than the Nissan because of X and Y. So for starters, you need a “dealership” which can sell multiple brands, imports as well as domestic.

In addition, this implies that the salesman must be very well informed, not just about all the models that Toyota or Scion makes, but the whole market. That’s the knowledge that the customer is paying for.

When salesmen protest that they can’t possibly keep up with all the details on every model in the showroom (and that’s for just for a single brand) to me that’s when they are surrendering the only real value that customers are expecting them to provide.

[mines13]

Originally Posted by thill

Honestly, I think some people take this way too personal and probably have a chip on their shoulder (and in many cases, rightfully so) due to past experience.

Since 2000, between me and my wife, we have owned 7 brand new vehicles. For six of them I sent out email to local dealers within a 50 mile radius or so of the car I was interested in. I would then narrow it down to the best two or three and call them on the phone to get their final price and get, in writing, the OTD price of the vehicle including all dealer fees and taxes.

I then setup an appointment, walk into the dealer with my email, test drive the car and make sure it is the car I want, and do the paperwork. Yes, 90% of the time they try to get you to buy some paint protection, Lo-Jack, etc. but just be polite and firm. I always tell them that I have done my research and 100% am not going to buy any dealer add-ons or extended warranties. Before they even launch into their sales pitch. Thanks, but no thanks. I just want the car at the price that was agreed to in the email. That's it. Thank you very much.

Works very well. If they are still pushy or try to change the terms of the deal, just walk away.

Just use a tool like Truecar as reference and doublecheck the manufacturers website for any incentives or rebates. It is so much more stress free for everybody this way.

And if you have a trade-in, you need to do your homework. Dealers make a lot of money off trade-ins and many of them will try to lowball you. That said, don't expect private party sale price on a dealer trade-in. It is a two-way street and dealers have to make money too. You can always sell private party and will almost always come out thousands of dollars ahead.

Logic and rational just works. This is how a sensible person makes a major purchase.

[TuxedoCartman]

Mines, you don't get to work on generalities of your own, and turn around and nitpick specifics in my posts. There's a reason "car salesman" is synonymous with "sleaze" in America. When people on here talk about how horrible it is dealing with salesmen, they're simply told they aren't dealing with the right ones, or that they're somehow "anti-profit".

I cited my purchasing history to squash the first of those statements, not to boast. As for how do I feel so confident making such a statement? Average age of buyer + average number of years between new car purchases, compared to my own personal history. Yes, I'm an statistical outlier; yes, I've been fortunate; no, you have no reason to believe me (welcome to the internet). Not my problem. But on the flip side, I see no more reason to believe you have worked out a flawless, pain-free method of purchasing cars (thus implying the fault is with me). In fact, given the complaints not just on this board but in life general, I'd say you're the statistical outlier in that category.

As for the quotes you pulled to speak ill of me? Yes... when you have to tell a man 6 times you're not interested in undercoating, in clear, precise statements such as "I do not want undercoating", and he still is pressuring you for the sale... then yes, I get angry. Yes, angry enough I want to punch someone (learn to differentiate between desires and actions, Mines). I will not apologize for that. No more than I will apologize for my analogy (analogy: look it up in a dictionary if you have to).

I'm just baffled as to how anybody who's not a car dealer can possibly be defending this system. The franchise dealership model in America exists solely to put a middle-man between you and purchasing your vehicle, with no benefit. Rather than attacking my rhetoric, or responding with over the top "Oh, you hate America! Go buy your cars in China or the Soviet Union!" rhetoric of your own, why don't you do this...

EXPLAIN ONE EXCLUSIVE BENEFIT OF THE AMERICAN FRANCHISE DEALERSHIP MODEL.

I just want one solid example, backed up in fact. That's all.

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman

EXPLAIN ONE EXCLUSIVE BENEFIT OF THE AMERICAN FRANCHISE DEALERSHIP MODEL.

I just want one solid example, backed up in fact. That's all.

Those snazzy license plate frames

[YukiHachiRoku]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Those snazzy license plate frames

Those cheezy dealership stickers!
(I told my dealer to not put that shit on, then they were like np, you will get a license plate frame, then I was like K, I will take it off when I get home.

[TuxedoCartman]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Those snazzy license plate frames

LOL... damn, you got me. For the sake of cheap license frame manufacturing jobs all over America (they are made in America, right?), I formally renounce everything bad I've said about dealers thus far!

[kwood9000]

Originally Posted by mines13

Logic and rational just works. This is how a sensible person makes a major purchase.

I would say that many car purchases are less logical and more emotional. Car salesmen know this and use it to their advantage.

[mines13]

Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman

Mines, you don't get to work on generalities of your own, and turn around and nitpick specifics in my posts. There's a reason "car salesman" is synonymous with "sleaze" in America. When people on here talk about how horrible it is dealing with salesmen, they're simply told they aren't dealing with the right ones, or that they're somehow "anti-profit".

Why are you being so angry and aggressive? I never said anyone was anti-profit. If anything, the manufacturer would be less profitable if they were directly financially responsible for thedealer and service infrastructure for the end purchaser. You are being about as general as it gets, it very much is a matter of dealing with the right dealer and/or salesman. I already cited my experiences.

I cited my purchasing history to squash the first of those statements, not to boast. As for how do I feel so confident making such a statement? Average age of buyer + average number of years between new car purchases, compared to my own personal history. Yes, I'm an statistical outlier; yes, I've been fortunate; no, you have no reason to believe me (welcome to the internet). Not my problem. But on the flip side, I see no more reason to believe you have worked out a flawless, pain-free method of purchasing cars (thus implying the fault is with me). In fact, given the complaints not just on this board but in life general, I'd say you're the statistical outlier in that category.

Again, your experiences certainly say more about yourself then it does all dealerships going by your own track record on purchasing new vehicles. I have no reason to not believe you either. You do not have to believe me, but I hold no chip on my shoulder...

As for the quotes you pulled to speak ill of me? Yes... when you have to tell a man 6 times you're not interested in undercoating, in clear, precise statements such as "I do not want undercoating", and he still is pressuring you for the sale... then yes, I get angry. Yes, angry enough I want to punch someone (learn to differentiate between desires and actions, Mines). I will not apologize for that. No more than I will apologize for my analogy (analogy: look it up in a dictionary if you have to).

Huh? Speak ill of you, I let you speak for yourself. I, nor anyone else speak for you. No need to insult ones intellect, this falls back to your right, at any point in time, to walk out the door with your hard earned money/credit. Again, I really am not getting why you are so aggressive and angry. I would have actually assumed you were a pretty cool guy to hang out with since we have similar taste in cars.

I'm just baffled as to how anybody who's not a car dealer can possibly be defending this system. The franchise dealership model in America exists solely to put a middle-man between you and purchasing your vehicle, with no benefit. Rather than attacking my rhetoric, or responding with over the top "Oh, you hate America! Go buy your cars in China or the Soviet Union!" rhetoric of your own, why don't you do this...

Never said "Oh, you hate America" and you are confusing two different points. I mentioned examples of purchasing factory direct. It just happened to be a popular model on a few communist nations. I actually did not say anything negative about it, just that it is what it is.

EXPLAIN ONE EXCLUSIVE BENEFIT OF THE AMERICAN FRANCHISE DEALERSHIP MODEL.

I just want one solid example, backed up in fact. That's all.

No need for caps my friend, I am right here. I already did, and you have repeatedly glazed over it intentionally or otherwise. But that is ok, I still like you and think you have great taste.

[Matt Andrews]

Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman

EXPLAIN ONE EXCLUSIVE BENEFIT OF THE AMERICAN FRANCHISE DEALERSHIP MODEL.

I just want one solid example, backed up in fact. That's all.

Its the most effective route to market for keeping cost down. This is a clear benefit to the american public. Manufactures excel at completing a finished good. But not at taking it to market. The cost of managing inventory turns, handling distribution, setting up retail store fronts, providing service centers,etc is not generally what manufactures do well. The only one I think that does it well, is Apple, but I am sure there are others. The consequence is essentially pricing fixing by the manufacture which is great for the manufacture as they fight margin compression - but not great for the consumer. When multiple companies offer the product (ie - dealers) there are federal laws that prohibit price fixing. When only one company holds all the stock, there is nothing to ensure you as the consumer get the product at "market" price as they set market price.

Here is something you may find counter intuitive. There is very little margin in new car sales now. Most dealerships see service departments as the profit center, and the new/used car departments are simply there to break even and create new customers for service. Look at the margin between invoice and what people actually pay. Include hold backs, dealer incentives, and what ever you think the dealer makes in the finance department. Its ridiculous if you consider then the cost of carrying inventory, keeping the lights on, insurance, oh - and paying people.

Here in lies the problem IMO. There is rarely enough money paid to the sales people as incentive for them to learn the product or stick around. Turn over is really high. The "good" ones move to other industries, other parts of the business, or move to higher end brands where there is margin. The sales person for my wife's lexus and mercedes were awesome. But they also have been there for a long period of time, and are actually sales people making a decent living - not warm bodies put in place to take your order. But this still doesn't mean that they are all bad people - but I do think it matters what you are buying.

Here is a tip - call the dealer before you go. Ask for the new car manager. Ask who his top sales person is on duty and set an appt with this person. Make sure they know you know the product, and you want someone who does as well. The best sales people are working with customers, and won't have time to come greet you on the lot as a fresh "up".

good luck with your purchase. No car is worth getting so mad you want to punch someone. You only get yanked around if they think you are yank around - able.

Matt

[mattles]

Imagine if you could just go online and order a car directly from Toyota Motor Corp, pay for it online at a set retail price, set up your financing with your bank of choice online, and then have the car drop shipped to your drive way. No bullshit.

Sounds like a plan to me. Too bad Im dreaming again.