Truth about using STI Brembos on the twins

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Shutter

better? as in its not recommend, but if you are hell bent on doing a sti brembo swap, its better to do brembo front/wrx rear? Or better to just avoid it all together since they are both "bad" for bias.

I only ask because I was heavily contemplating doing this. My buddy has a full set of the 06 4 pot/2pot calipers for me, but because of the rear brake bias issue of doing the full 4/2 pot swap I haven't done anything with them yet, and I was thinking of doing the sti brembo front, and the 2 pot wrx on the rear.

If I recall, there is still a shift forward in bias (which I am not a fan of) with Brembo front and FHI 2 pot rear but it's not as bad as the full Brembo kit. As others have said, it won't destroy your car, but it might not be the best way to go if you track your car.

I'll see if I have the numbers tonight.

EDIT: The rear FHI 2 pots shift bias forward. Front FHI 4 pots have no effect on bias.

- Andrew

[acro]

I don't get why people would take a chance with their brakes. Particularly at a track.

I mean the brakes are only the difference between life and death.

[protpibe]

Originally Posted by acro

I don't get why people would take a chance with their brakes. Particularly at a track.

I mean the brakes are only the difference between life and death.

The fear mongering in this thread is out of control.

Brakes are the only difference between life and death?

Not your skill, other drivers skill, the condition of your tires, the overall state of repair of your car, the state of repair/condition of everyone elses vehicles, changing weather, etc etc etc etc etc.

No, not any of those things. A properly installed caliper that has the potential to shift the bias forwards a bit is what's going to cause your death.

How hard do you weekend warriors push your car at the track?? I went to 4 or 5 hot lap sessions last summer and I can say with certainty that i'm completely happy at 80-90% of the cars limit lol. Apparently all the Schumachers out there are trail braking on the ragged edge with their dailys lol

Please don't take offence to my post, I'm just trying to be as light hearted as possible with this discussion by injecting some sarcasm

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by protpibe

The fear mongering in this thread is out of control.

Brakes are the only difference between life and death?

Not your skill, other drivers skill, the condition of your tires, the overall state of repair of your car, the state of repair/condition of everyone elses vehicles, changing weather, etc etc etc etc etc.

No, not any of those things. A properly installed caliper that has the potential to shift the bias forwards a bit is what's going to cause your death.

How hard do you weekend warriors push your car at the track?? I went to 4 or 5 hot lap sessions last summer and I can say with certainty that i'm completely happy at 80-90% of the cars limit lol. Apparently all the Schumachers out there are trail braking on the ragged edge with their dailys lol

Please don't take offence to my post, I'm just trying to be as light hearted as possible with this discussion by injecting some sarcasm

If your brakes fail, no amount of driver skill will save you. My 90% is going to be a lot faster than your 90%.

This is what happens when brakes fail.

This is a Nissan 370Z with a brake failure at Circuit of the Americas.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeoxt_6_Y3g"]Tim Bell Huge Crash 2014 Continental Tire Sportscar Challange at COTA - YouTube[/ame]

[protpibe]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If your brakes fail, no amount of driver skill will save you. My 90% is going to be a lot faster than your 90%.

This is what happens when brakes fail.

This is a Nissan 370Z with a brake failure at Circuit of the Americas.

I said I was happy at 80-90% of the *cars* limit, not 80-90% of my own lowly limit. I guess I should correct that to "perceived cars limit" before someone jumps on that too.

Just for sake of clarity, you're implying that installing Brembo calipers off of an STI onto a Twin will cause brake failure of those proportions? I'm curious how that math adds up.

[wootwoot]

I think he is saying brakes are important and you shouldn't mess with them if you don't know what you are doing. Nothing more.

The STi brake swap is a hack job. Period. Some are okay with it, others are not. If you want to enhance the appearance of a street car it may be worth it. If you want better performance it is the wrong path to take.

[Jive Turkey]

i'm not an expert but i think i'll toss in my .02$.

i am not a race car driver or some "authority". my car is primarily my DD. with that said, theres a lot to consider in that article but they also didn't mention a few facts. i do not think installing brembos is a half as job and is the wrong path to take, thats just not true.

for starters, i have them mounted the right way, and i swapped bleeders so that i could bleed them correctly. I added SS lines and an MBC. the pedal feel is night and day. i do many auto-x runs and a few HPDE events, and have yet to feel the bias be really awful or any bias at all to be honest. the car feels very well sorted out under heavy braking, but that could also be because i have such big tires square (265's). I was one of the first to do so much to the platform around here, and when we go down to NJMP many people, including pro drivers have had seat time in my car and have said that is quite good.

obviously the brembos aren't the best choice if you are a die hard racer. however when installed correctly i really think its a great budget upgrade for those of us that do it for fun and don't compete because they can be had for a good price. i know i'll eventually go to a more dedicated track brake setup, but until the car is a DD i will keep the brembos on.

i 100% agree that installing them any other way would be really idiotic and unsafe. however i have put on over 30k onto the car with my brake setup as it is now and i have not once had an issue. i will be rebuilding them next week and going to a more aggressive pad, but i think the article really was one sided...but what do you expect from the internet, nothing is ever just factual and impartial.

[protpibe]

Originally Posted by wootwoot

I think he is saying brakes are important and you shouldn't mess with them if you don't know what you are doing. Nothing more.

The STi brake swap is a hack job. Period. Some are okay with it, others are not. If you want to enhance the appearance of a street car it may be worth it. If you want better performance it is the wrong path to take.

No, thats not what he was saying.

This is a thread discussing installing STI Brembos onto the twins, and the potential negatives assuming they were properly installed. No one is talking about mechanical ability and the potential of INCORRECTLY installed brakes.

He posted a video of a purpose built race car flying into a wall @ 100mph after experiencing a total brake failure.

The two are not related whatsoever lmao

How will greater front bias cause my car to inexplicably lose ALL brake force and fly into a wall?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by protpibe

No, thats not what he was saying.

This is a thread discussing installing STI Brembos onto the twins, and the potential negatives assuming they were properly installed. No one is talking about mechanical ability and the potential of INCORRECTLY installed brakes.

He posted a video of a purpose built race car flying into a wall @ 100mph after experiencing a total brake failure.

The two are not related whatsoever lmao

How will greater front bias cause my car to inexplicably lose ALL brake force and fly into a wall?

I guess you didn't read my previous post.

Lets say you're at a casual track day. Two scenarios

Scenario 1: Equal front and rear compounds.

Front brake pads get overworked due to front bias -> front pads fade -> only the rear pads are remaining -> results in either an off (not enough sheer braking power) or a spin (rear brake bias while trail braking, causing a loss of control).

Scenario 2: Staggered compounds to "fix" rear brake bias.

Rear brake pads heat up quicker due to increased friction -> increased heat further increases friction, further causing rear brake pads to heat up more than the front -> rear pads overheat from being overworked -> only front brakes are left, now making fronts overwork while rears remain cooked -> no braking force -> incident

[Canehda]

I think once we get passed the installation aspects of brembos (which apply to all BBKs), I will go out on a limb and say as a daily driver I would trust my STI Brembos more than a stoptech, AP racing or wilwood BBK. It has nothing to do with any of those listed aftermarket companies being bad quality because I think they are all fantastic quality but at the end of the day the brembos are OEM+ parts, they may not have the peak performance prowess that an AP racing kit has but I really think the extra performance an AP racing kit has for our car would only be necessary for 0.1% of owners :P I almost feel as though it is like comparing KW v3 or RCE coils to Penske coils in performance, I mean the RCE coils are fantastic coils for a weekend warrior that wants better suspension compliance, but only a few of us truly need Penske coils!

btw I have nothing but respect for all of you guys in this thread, I just think that sometimes we naturally look for a clear cut answer in an industry where every decision is situation specific!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Canehda

I think once we get passed the installation aspects of brembos (which apply to all BBKs), I will go out on a limb and say as a daily driver I would trust my STI Brembos more than a stoptech, AP racing or wilwood BBK. It has nothing to do with any of those listed aftermarket companies being bad quality because I think they are all fantastic quality but at the end of the day the brembos are OEM+ parts, they may not have the peak performance prowess that an AP racing kit has but I really think the extra performance an AP racing kit has for our car would only be necessary for 0.1% of owners :P I almost feel as though it is like comparing KW v3 or RCE coils to Penske coils in performance, I mean the RCE coils are fantastic coils for a weekend warrior that wants better suspension compliance, but only a few of us truly need Penske coils!

btw I have nothing but respect for all of you guys in this thread, I just think that sometimes we naturally look for a clear cut answer in an industry where every decision is situation specific!

I'd actually reverse your suspension analagy for Brembo vs AP.... Brembo is the premium product. If CSG had the budget for a Brembo setup, we absolutely would be running Brembos.

The issue I have with Brembo swaps is that people are using a part that is completely inappropriately specced for this car.

[Canehda]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'd actually reverse your suspension analagy for Brembo vs AP.... Brembo is the premium product. If CSG had the budget for a Brembo setup, we absolutely would be running Brembos.

The issue I have with Brembo swaps is that people are using a part that is completely inappropriately specced for this car.

But arent the STI Brembo swaps budget compared to the APs? I mean if I had to pay full price on the Brembos then yes I agree but I bought my set for $1200 with rotors and lines!
Next closest was wilwood which would have cost me almost $2000 up here in Canada

[Cuchullain]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

If I recall, there is still a shift forward in bias (which I am not a fan of) with Brembo front and FHI 2 pot rear but it's not as bad as the full Brembo kit. As others have said, it won't destroy your car, but it might not be the best way to go if you track your car.

I'll see if I have the numbers tonight.

- Andrew

According to the math I did, and the "brakemath" sheet off NASIOC, the front and rear STi swap nets a shift of about 16% forward bias. The STi front + WRX 2 pot rear nets ~10% forward shift. This math makes a bunch of assumptions, but it should be in the ballpark without doing more than 2 mins worth of work.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Canehda

But arent the STI Brembo swaps budget compared to the APs? I mean if I had to pay full price on the Brembos then yes I agree but I bought my set for $1200 with rotors and lines!
Next closest was wilwood which would have cost me almost $2000 up here in Canada

It's cheaper up front, but the pads are smaller, while costing more, and the replacement rotors also cost more. The AP Sprint retains factory bias, includes lines, and has more heat dissipation capacity. The catch is that it's a race part, and not suitable for street use in any part of the country that sees road salt or snow.

The cost of consumables are likely moot for a street car, but for a car that sees any track time *at all* at ANY level of skill, there will be a big difference in consumable cost. By the time you do your first pad change on the AP, you've already made up the difference in initial cost.

Oh, and we're also comparing new vs used. Kinda like a S2000 vs FRS debate.