When does driving MT get "fun"

[jenzan]

^^

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Klinn

I can understand your reluctance regarding a conventional torque converter type auto (e.g. the Tiptronic) but do you feel that the dual-clutch automated manual (e.g. DSG) is no better?

I've read that some still have issues but have never had the opportunity to try one myself.

I don't feel any real difference between the two. New automatics with manual shifting respond to your command within milliseconds, whereas older designs you'd have to wait up to 500rpm before the damn thing would shift. They should also blip the throttle on downshifts. They perform the same function, autos and DSG's, just done differently. They might be a little different out on a racetrack but as far as spirited street driving or putting around town is concerned, they shouldn't feel different. And since I'd expect <10% of us will ever take the car on a track, the time spent driving on the street is where it counts most.

I know they shift faster than a manual, and will eventually replace the manual completely. Hopefully I'll either be dead by then, or will have a spaceship and be well past caring about cars

Originally Posted by 7thgear

^
all on a racetrack i assume?

I will in August, at Monticello Motor Club - The Audi Experience training. I can say I have auto-x'ed an automatic NC Miata and Mazda3 before... I was yawning.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Kinda makes all the text before it redundant really.

?????????????? The issues and techniques are the same, real car or simulation. That is why it's called a simulation.

[Spaceywilly]

When I was first learning manual one of my college roommates had a G25 wheel and some racing sim game, I think it was iRacing, on his laptop. He hooked it up and I tried it and I was heel-toeing like a pro after about 5 minutes. Got back in my car and tried it and it did not go so well. It is 1000x more difficult to do in real life than in a game (I'm sorry, simulator). It's still not bad once you get the hang of it, but if you think you will be good at it in real life because you are good at it in the game you're in for a surprise.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

When I was first learning manual one of my college roommates had a G25 wheel and some racing sim game, I think it was iRacing, on his laptop. He hooked it up and I tried it and I was heel-toeing like a pro after about 5 minutes. Got back in my car and tried it and it did not go so well. It is 1000x more difficult to do in real life than in a game (I'm sorry, simulator).

LOL yeah kind of thought that could be the case, if only because of the heightened tension of doing it with a real car. I'll have to try it out on my current car on a quiet street before I make my final transmission choice for the FR-S.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by mattles

I see we've got some professional level bench-racers here. Although, based on what Ive read on the past 2 pages alone, Im awarding the trophy for Best in Class Bench Racing Expert to 7thGear.

Congrats kid, you done good. Now get on out there and start debating aerodynamics because the only thing cooler than a bench-racer is an All-Pro Armchair Physicist.

armchair.. yes

ive been out competing in autocross and time attack for the last 7 years and instructing for 5 of them.

i'm no Senna.. but i do my best.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

t is 1000x more difficult to do in real life than in a game (I'm sorry, simulator). It's still not bad once you get the hang of it, but if you think you will be good at it in real life because you are good at it in the game you're in for a surprise.

Sorry the transition was so difficult for you. I just tried it for the first time in my car tonight, practicing for an hour, and did not run into the same problems. It was necessary to adjust technique a bit to work around the differing pedal placements but after that it was about the same as in-game. Maybe the sim or the settings in it that you used weren't realistic.

[Prava]

Will master everything in this thread...once I get my FR-S

[Sport-Tech]

For daily driving, there is a simpler way for slowing and then resuming than heel-toe that I have been practicing that will eliminate the synchro wear problem that occurs when you skip gears (say with a 4 -> 1 shift) (see other thread on AT vs MT for a discussion of this point). This is a variant of 7th gear's procedure above but for a gated manual, and without the heel-toe. Say you're doing 60 and want to drop to 10:

1. brake without shifting or clutching until your rpms are a few hundred above idle
2. push in clutch while still braking
3. immediately flick down through each gear 4 - 3- 2- 1 without letting clutch up
4. assuming you are now at your desired speed, move right foot from brake to throttle and blip it to match engine rpm in first gear at your current speed
5. let out clutch, proceed in first gear

This approach avoids both clutch wear and undue synchro wear, and is a lot easier than heel-toeing down through the gears. It does give you a bit less engine braking, but it also imposes less wear on the clutch if your rev-matching is less than perfect.

Another recommended procedure to avoid synchro wear is to double-clutch when you shift out of 4th and then you can go direct to first (clutch in, go from 4th into neutral, let out and then push in clutch again, rev-match and then shift to first) but it's not as much fun!

For racing, though, neither of these procedures is quite as efficient as heel-toe downshifting as they impose more of a time gap between braking and accelerating. But heel-toeing down and skipping one or more gears will tax the synchros - either cycle down through all gears or double clutch as well.

[ttknf]

Originally Posted by RYU

I drove a MT in traffic from Pasadena to Santa Monica for 4 yrs. That's 20+ miles each way averaging 15-25mph with frequent stops. If that doesn't drive you crazy.. I don't know what will. This was in an S2000.

Any other time, even long distance hwy driving, I prefer a MT. However, in stop and go LA traffic.. i'd rather shoot myself.

btw.. if you're having trouble on a hill or a steep incline the e-brake is a great tool here. learn how to modulate that. It's not only for drifting!

I also did the stop and go to downtown LA on the 60 and 10 for 2 years in an S2K and I honestly didn't think it was that bad. If anything, it was more frustrating on the days that I drove a car with an auto trans because I had to constantly keep my foot on the brake when stopped, whereas with MT, I could just leave it in neutral and sit there.

OP, when you stop having to think about all the details of driving a manual trans and it literally becomes second nature, things get better. At that point, you can legitimately "drive" the car and start pushing a little bit towards the limits. There's certain car control that you lose by not being able to "do tricks" with the clutch. It's difficult to explain the difference in feeling, but I feel much less confident in cars with automatic transmissions at the limit.
(The only exception I can say, and even then it was a bit sketchy, is the Nissan GT-R when pushed hard; I've gone fast without realizing how fast, but when cornering hard on less than perfect tarmac, it's a little unsettling not feeling totally in control of the drive line.)

[Khyron686]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

I don't feel any real difference between the two. New automatics with manual shifting respond to your command within milliseconds, whereas older designs you'd have to wait up to 500rpm before the damn thing would shift. They should also blip the throttle on downshifts. They perform the same function, autos and DSG's, just done differently. They might be a little different out on a racetrack but as far as spirited street driving or putting around town is concerned, they shouldn't feel different. And since I'd expect <10% of us will ever take the car on a track, the time spent driving on the street is where it counts most.

I know they shift faster than a manual, and will eventually replace the manual completely. Hopefully I'll either be dead by then, or will have a spaceship and be well past caring about cars

I'm with this guy. VW/Audi DSG was/is amazing. Shifts faster than any race car driver. No lost torque. Sport mode holds high revs. It's a marvel. And quite boring. Same reason I'd rather a slower fun car vs a faster computer car.

If I was getting paid to race/win then I'd have a DSG/PDK in a heartbeat.

Check out videos of the 370Z 's manual "rev match" tech - it's a manual gearbox with a clutch, but it has sensors in the gates so as you shift around the revs jump to where they need to be. It's brilliant, and flawless. I'd probably turn it off.