Scion FT-86 FR-S

[70NYD]

Oh and don't talk about post ford Mazda.. That's a perfect example how a American market research can destroy a Japanese car company and design..
You having to fully rebuild engine ground up is counter intuitive of a good design..
I too know what I am talking about, might not be 30 but I have designed and fully engineered a engine and a gearbox before as well as full chassis, both spacrframe, monocoque and cross as well as suspension.. (from scratch, more than one occasion)..

[Dragonitti]

Still an example of a Factory boosted Motor...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

It chassis is based on the Toyota Avensis a European AWD family/economy car. This very fact is why it is allowed to compete in Formula D. Rules of Formula D state that you are NOT allowed to convert FWD cars to RWD to run in the series. The car has to come from either an AWD configuration (which the tC's chassis as mentioned, already does), or it must be RWD.






Actually I posted that I was proud to be a Scion owner because I look up to these tC's. One is built beyond the normal guy (me)'s means, and the other is a build that any normal guy can duplicate (PTuning's tC). Marketing spell are you serious? I was racing my tC before PTuning even came around dude. I was boosted before PTuning developed their Time Attack tC. And Rado wasn't knocking down Track records yet. I am considered an OG in the Scion Community because I've been around the Scion Forums before there was even one single turbo setup for a tC. Now there are like 10....LOL.

I am definitely proud of the David vs Goliath phenom though, but that is based on my Own Personal experiences from my Street racing days. Everyone in my town "were" just like you. Now when they see my tC roll around, they "Know" to not be just like you. You know, if I were to meet the lot of you at the race track and you had no prior knowledge of me via these forums, you would have me do the same thing the guys at the race track have me do.....That is making me pop my hood, only to find out that I'm currently running a stock air box, stock header and full exhaust for power...LOL. If they make me pop the hood now, imagine when I put my new turbo setup on the car....






It wouldn't be the first time you were in this thread now would it. What part of PTuning has never seen $1 dollar from Scion do you keep over reading?

Of course I'm not backed by Scion, I'm just a privateer doing what he can on a family man's budget. Get over my car because it's basically a Camry/Corolla coupe? Fact 1: Camry and the NEW Corolla XRS share one thing with the tC....powerplant. So, based on your OVER simplified attempt at a put down that, you guessed it, I've heard 1billion times already.....You consider a 240sx a Truck then, as the 240sx KA came from a pickup truck.

Is there something wrong with someone building their car they selected and enjoying it's performance and being proud of what it has accomplished?

And how much BETTER should Rado's tC be doing? It's Untouched dude...every FWD car in the Unlimited class is like 8sec slower than he is. How much of a butt whooping do he need to give?

Listen, you don't have to Like Scion, or like the tC or whatever. But there is a difference between being an Enthusiast and giving respect to Fast feats of engineering, and just simply being ignorant and hating on something no matter what it accomplishes. Which are you? Something tells me Enthusiast isn't among the people here. I am an Enthusiast, and I enjoy anything that is fast or can be made fast. I can give two rats if it's FWD, AWD, RWD, made by Mitsu, Subie, Toyota, Scion...etc.

So, the whole..."Oh if it comes out as a Scion then I won't buy it"....I simply laugh at. People hated when they found out the new GTR35 was going to come out under Nissan. And many stated "$70k for a Nissan is stupid".....yet the car freaking performs. As long as the FT-86 performance meets it's price, I can careless if it comes out as a Scion or a Toyota, although I sure HOPE it comes out as a Scion or have a Scion version, cause I'm going to rock it hard and see what it's made of.

Head. Meet wall. Again. Yet I continue...

Formula D lets Scion run a full tube-frame, NASCAR powered car. This has nothing to do with homologation of a chassis-sharing car in Europe.

You have who is David and who is Goliath mixed up. This is because of the marketing.

As for you keep using PTuning to support the 'no money from Scion' argument. First, they are getting sponsorship from their local Scion dealer (on their website). So that makes your statement wrong. Secondly as there are many more 'top' teams that ARE getting more money from Scion than aren't it makes your argument irrelevant in addition to being wrong.

Now, the Camry powerplant, that is one of the only connections to a factory Toyota, let alone Scion, that the AWD monster has. It could have a Camry, Matrix, RAV4 or Corolla carbon-fiber body over its chassis and be just as related. Actually more so to the Matrix and RAV4 given that they are available in AWD. Not even going into the 2JZGTE and 3RZ powered drag cars...

As for people hating the fact that the GT-R came out as a Nissan? Now I know you're talking out your ass. The only outrage was that they didn't call it a Skyline here.

You are still missing my point. Out of the box, the tC, as good as anyone can mod it on their own, is a boring Toyota commuting appliance, with flashy marketing behind it. Toyota has learned from people like you, that there is no need to actually produce a real Scion performance car. They will make this thing safe and boring (while sponsoring awesome race versions)if they are gun-shy about lawsuits from idiot tC (the wannabe types, not necessarily enthusiasts like yourself) owners moving up to their first RWD car to be like Foust or Gushi, and spinning into oncoming traffic the first time it rains. They dumbed down the SW20 MR2 over similar concerns, so don't say it won't happen.

I don't want this car to come out as a 'safe' Scion and have to spend another $10K on the thing to make it fun. The concern if it comes out as a Toyota is still there, but maybe Toyota will recognize that there are still guys like me that remember Toyota's RWD performance past.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Head. Meet wall. Again. Yet I continue...

Formula D lets Scion run a full tube-frame, NASCAR powered car. This has nothing to do with homologation of a chassis-sharing car in Europe.

Yet Again, that is but ONE tC in FD. There are 2 people. The second one is driven by Ken Gushi. And is NOT tubed frame. Gushi's tC WAS at it's start, powered by a BEAMS motor. Gushi was Drifting the tC before Tanner was guys...stay with me now and follow. Gushi's tC ran the BEAMS motor for about 2 seasons at around 400+whp. The motor was not reliable and kept breaking on them. What did they do....they turned to Chris Rado and asked for advice. What did Rado suggest.....Put the factory motor back in it! LOL....For 2010 they have been running a Built 2az-FE at 600whp (200 more than what their BEAMS was making), and have been running it this whole season.

NEWS UPDATE:

Tanner's Rockstar Scion tC will NOT be running a V8 Nascar motor for 2011. The rules of FD are changing again, and the firewall rule seems to be a good stress point now. This rule enforcement now is going to cause a LOT of teams, not just the Rockstar team, to ditch their V8 swaps (as we know, Tanner's tC is not the only V8 swapped Drift car). So, I believe this rule is going to force Tanner and Rockstar to drop in a 2az factory tC motor. I keep up with Scion News and Current Motorsports, you can look this up if you wish.

Originally Posted by Dimman

You have who is David and who is Goliath mixed up. This is because of the marketing.

As for you keep using PTuning to support the 'no money from Scion' argument. First, they are getting sponsorship from their local Scion dealer (on their website). So that makes your statement wrong. Secondly as there are many more 'top' teams that ARE getting more money from Scion than aren't it makes your argument irrelevant in addition to being wrong.

Dude....I PERSONALLY KNOW MrC who is the founder of PTuning. If they would have been getting RACE funding from Scion, he Would NOT be making post on ScionLife expressing his frustrations at what they have accomplished and not getting a nod from Scion for doing it. He has posted this several times.

They are sponsored from the Local Scion Dealer in terms of "that" dealer dropping off a brand new 2011 tC so they can start development on a full boost setup. That's their involvement with Scion. No where near the level of involvement suggest for all Scion track cars.

And PTuning....IS NOT the only example I have mentioned to back up my statements. I have used My own car, and My Own experiences in this "David vs Goliath" phenom you speak of. And I know you are not considering me as Goliath...lol.

So, what you are trying to say again which basically trumps your own biased opinion is that....."A car can be fast with enough money thrown into it" Right? So, what is with the hostility of hating on any particular platform then? Why hate on ANY car or anybody's passion? If all cars can be fast (which I don't believe by the way), then there is no rhyme or reason to dislike a platform at all...except that you would rather be driving car X, because you like it. So....in the Grand Scheme of things...it's a matter of Personal Choice and not a Matter of a car Sucking.

Some cars just can't do these things though, so that's why I stated I don't believe any car can be fast with enough money in it, and still retain that cars roots to a factory show room car.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Now, the Camry powerplant, that is one of the only connections to a factory Toyota, let alone Scion, that the AWD monster has. It could have a Camry, Matrix, RAV4 or Corolla carbon-fiber body over its chassis and be just as related. Actually more so to the Matrix and RAV4 given that they are available in AWD. Not even going into the 2JZGTE and 3RZ powered drag cars...

It is the most extreme engineered AWD Time Attack car that I can think of currently. Because it continues to use the 2az, I can be proud of it, because it's the same motor we all have from the factory. It's not even sleeved and makes 1007whp/890wtq. You can say what you want, but I enjoy that, THAT car is under the Scion bonnet.

Originally Posted by Dimman

As for people hating the fact that the GT-R came out as a Nissan? Now I know you're talking out your ass. The only outrage was that they didn't call it a Skyline here.

Talking out my ass? Sure...ok because not a SINGLE person on this planet snub nosed that it would be a $70k dollar Nissan.

Originally Posted by Dimman

You are still missing my point. Out of the box, the tC, as good as anyone can mod it on their own, is a boring Toyota commuting appliance, with flashy marketing behind it. Toyota has learned from people like you, that there is no need to actually produce a real Scion performance car. They will make this thing safe and boring (while sponsoring awesome race versions)if they are gun-shy about lawsuits from idiot tC (the wannabe types, not necessarily enthusiasts like yourself) owners moving up to their first RWD car to be like Foust or Gushi, and spinning into oncoming traffic the first time it rains. They dumbed down the SW20 MR2 over similar concerns, so don't say it won't happen.

The tC IS and WAS meant to be a "Blank" canvas. YOU as an individual were to make it YOUR OWN. Do you understand how that works now? That is their Marketing behind the Scion line in general. They were all Blank canvas machines. They didn't go add on turbos, stiffer suspension for you, wheel packages...etc. Do you honestly think you can buy a tC for less than $18 if they did all the performance upgrades like you would find on say a factory MS3, Civic SI (with its factory LSD), etc...

I don't buy your "fear of lawsuit" ideology as the reason why they don't produce a vehicle in a higher price bracket because of Noobs. Noobs can't usually afford the cost associated with owning a more Performance inspired car from the factory, thus weeding out that group of people. If that was their phobia, then we would not have 350z's, S2k's, Genesis Coupes....because everyone would be scared of that. Did you talk to a Toyota Executive and they told you that was their thought process when developing Scion? I think not....sorry. When Scion first launched and was released...there were no "performance" focus at all. The earlier commercials featured Show Cars.

And you can't simply right off the aftermarket for the brand. The Aftermarket for the tC created by Toyota giving money to companies to make parts. It takes more than that to have a great Aftermarket backing. Take the Gen Coupe for example....Car comes Turboed from the factory. The aftermarket is really slow with that car. I feel it's been out long enough to have an immediate following and R&D being done due to it's characteristics from the factory, yet they barely have anything for that car yet. My impression of the 2.0L turbo is not that great, it's heavy and as slow as a stock tC.

And wasn't there a 3S-GTE MR2? Was the SW20 MR2 cheaper than the 3S-GTE MR2? Could that not have been a move to offer the car at a cheaper price for those who still wanted an MR2 but couldn't afford the turbo version?

Originally Posted by Dimman

I don't want this car to come out as a 'safe' Scion and have to spend another $10K on the thing to make it fun. The concern if it comes out as a Toyota is still there, but maybe Toyota will recognize that there are still guys like me that remember Toyota's RWD performance past.

Nothing short of $70k dollar sports cars is "Fun" enough for me. I don't care what it is, I'm going to mod it. Stock = Lame no matter what you drive, unless it's like a Enzo, Veyron, Zanda or other Supercar platform. Even an R35 stock is lame although it's a Supercar killer in stock form. That's just my opinion. I can care less what mods they put on it from the factory, I'm going to change them for parts that are 10 times better from the Aftermarket.

tC didn't come with an LSD....So I put one in...LOL. I enjoy working and wrenching on my cars. If I bought a car that I was 100% happy with leaving stock, it would as I mentioned....have to be a Supercar.

You think Toyota will remember the Supra Follower...after it has Built a Long extensive History of Making "Green Commuter Cars", because that's where the money is at? I think they have a better chance at enhancing the buzz Scion already has developed in Motorsports and Enthusiast like me, than to spend $millions on a hunch that they can spark the old Toyota Motorsports Enthusiast.

From a business point, I wouldn't bet on rekindling the Toyota Fire.

[Dragonitti]

PS...I got to run, I'll check back for any replies tomorrow (or should I say today, as it's 2:00AM...LOL).

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

And wasn't there a 3S-GTE MR2? Was the SW20 MR2 cheaper than the 3S-GTE MR2? Could that not have been a move to offer the car at a cheaper price for those who still wanted an MR2 but couldn't afford the turbo version?

Are you kidding me? Wow...

S=Engine code in the car, in this case the 5SFE (NA, Camry sourced as well!) and the 3SGTE (turbo)
W=Chassis code of the car
20=Generation

SW20= 2nd generation MR2.

Now the history lesson. Mid-model this car got a reworked rear suspension because people were wrecking. User (noob) error, but the car and enthusiasts pay the price. Honda did this with the S2000 as well.

As for you being all super hard-core and modding your car, good for you. That's what everyone wants to do! I want to install my own LSD in every new car I get! Maybe I'm spoiled with the Supra whereas all the fundamentals are already there (LSD, strong bottom-end and transmission, indestructible axles, suspension geometry with built-in camber gain...) Yes the FT/R-86/S is not going to be an expensive new Supra. But the handling fundamentals should be there, without having to spend time and money up front, to fix excessively 'safe' understeer, and 'safe' one-tire fire. Having the fundamentals lets me enjoy the stock car for a while so I can save for later mods.

There are a lot of exiled Toyota enthusiasts out there that this car can bring back. And we have higher standards up front than FWD tC noobs that believe the marketing hype.

As for the PTuning money thing:

http://www.ptuningscion.com/subdir/ta_sciontc.cfm

Under sponsors, first one after themselves is a Scion dealer, probably more than a buck from them.

[Matador]

Wow. This thread certainly took off. LMAO.


Guys, seriously, you are going overboard now.

To be fair, The 2AZ seems to be very adept at taking boost. No bullshit there. While IMO it is completely useless to be putting more than 300whp to an FF car, there is no denying that while the AZ engine in my eyes is lacking in stock form, it can be considered a decent base for a tuner engine. Obviously, it is not yet a 3S or 2JZ, but that will come with time. One can only hope the AR is at least as good (if only to pop into the back of a W20 )
Most of Toyota's modern engines have forged cranks, and multi-bolt mains, so virtually all of them are solid. Potential is there for the future.

Conversely, grassroots motorsports brings street cred, not racing heritage, so cut out the bullshit. Racing heritage comes from years at racing in top level motorsports; WRC, F1, LeMans, WTCC, BTCC, GT2/GT1 racing, Dakar, Baja etc. and taking home race wins and/or championship trophies while at it. With few exceptions, Toyota has done that in spades.

Now, I have a lot more dimension to this argument, but seeing as I'm hung over and not in the mood for discourse, I'll leave it at that for now. Maybe I might come back later and elaborate.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Are you kidding me? Wow...

S=Engine code in the car, in this case the 5SFE (NA, Camry sourced as well!) and the 3SGTE (turbo)
W=Chassis code of the car
20=Generation

SW20= 2nd generation MR2.

Now the history lesson. Mid-model this car got a reworked rear suspension because people were wrecking. User (noob) error, but the car and enthusiasts pay the price. Honda did this with the S2000 as well.

As for you being all super hard-core and modding your car, good for you. That's what everyone wants to do! I want to install my own LSD in every new car I get! Maybe I'm spoiled with the Supra whereas all the fundamentals are already there (LSD, strong bottom-end and transmission, indestructible axles, suspension geometry with built-in camber gain...) Yes the FT/R-86/S is not going to be an expensive new Supra. But the handling fundamentals should be there, without having to spend time and money up front, to fix excessively 'safe' understeer, and 'safe' one-tire fire. Having the fundamentals lets me enjoy the stock car for a while so I can save for later mods.

There are a lot of exiled Toyota enthusiasts out there that this car can bring back. And we have higher standards up front than FWD tC noobs that believe the marketing hype.

As for the PTuning money thing:

http://www.ptuningscion.com/subdir/ta_sciontc.cfm

Under sponsors, first one after themselves is a Scion dealer, probably more than a buck from them.

Just FYI....I was asking you a question, not being sarcastic about the MR2. Didn't follow the MR2 history all that much.

Secondly, there is no need to point a link to me and have me view the Lustine Scion name in the sponsors section, I have viewed that page more times to count. More Tid bit of information for you. I mentioned that PTuning was the 2008 and 2009 repeat Modified FWD champs. Notice I didn't say 2010? It wasn't because they ran and got beat.....it's because they didn't run at All. Lack of funding. There is only so much a shop can do campaigning after two race seasons under their own budget.

I will say it only one more time you can choose to think otherwise if you want to, or you can call PTuning themselves and ask them if they are backed by Corporate Scion to fund their Race Car.

Last time I will say it....."They are NOT a Scion Factory Supported/Backed Race Team". If they were, they would have competed in 2010 as well.

Every car these days is built with Understeer for safety, don't think you are going to get anything less than that these days. Especially with the Govt. regulations on the Auto Industry, constantly pressuring them to make cars safer.

[Dragonitti]

Just some Real Scions who care about their performance.

Guy down in FL, built his motor himself (he's running stock sleeves also), built the head of the car and was originally on a Dezod turbo setup. He owns like 2 Supras (one with 1000+hp), a C6 Z06 with bolt-ons as well.

This is the tC he built vs his C6 Z06

Then he later went to PTuning to take him to the next level.

662whp/600wtq @ 29.5lbs of boost (made 478whp on pump gas @ 18lbs of boost)

Another guy in FL (I actually don't get along that well with him)

400whp on a built bottom end running 11.7 @ 124mph

Another guy in FL with a Stock motor tC @ 14lbs of boost dynoed 360whp running 12.4 @ 111

He was two stepping it at 5k rpms and after several passes, motor finally threw a rod. He had prior been street racing it for a while before taking it to the track and finally popping it. Then he built the motor.


PTuning on their Dyno Dynamics

500+whp on 24lbs tapering down to 21lbs of boost, running 93 oct. and 50/50 Meth Injection

Guy in NY that goes by Purevision

400+whp and reving out to 8k rpms (factory is 6250) on an Emanage Ultimate
http://www.youtube.com/user/PureVisi...15/jqxfod52gPk

[Dragonitti]

I will make a new Introduction thread, seeing as how my other account "RhythmnSmoke" that I signed up on here with is not functioning correctly as you can't see any of the 86 Post Counts I made...LOL

But I will make an Intro thread with my cars and my vids.

[ichitaka05]

dang, a lot of post between the time I hit bed and after breakfast. Man, bout 2 pages full of stuff gotta read... but instead I gonna hit Miyazaki for 2 days. lol and no Dimman, I haven't had a chance to hit Autopolis yet, hopefully this weekend (crossing my figures).

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Just some Real Scions who care about their performance.

Who ever said that there are no scion guys that care about performance?

Un bunch your panties dude, nobody is attacking you personally.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Is this the current version of the old Speedvision Challenge? If that's the case then they make a lot of effort for parity. And cars that start from a bigger performance hole are allowed more extreme mods.

Yes, SCCA bought the SWC series at the end of the 09 season. Most, if not all of the rules carried over.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

blah, spew, blargh...
also your AudiVsPorsche idea is retarded, because a Audi CAN be a race car from stock.. where as a tC.. LOL

You are absolutely right. An A4 could be raced in stock trim. Have you ever raced or driven an A4 saloon (non-S/RS trim) of any recent generation? If so, then you are aware that an A4 in stock trim is an overweight, underpowered, pig of a car that doesn't like to turn, correct? You know, I think I said the exact same thing about my tC earlier in this very thread.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

you need a well constructed argument to actually have a viable response.. you based your WHOLE thing on one spelling mistake, and unless you are a complete retard, you knew it was a spelling mistake..

I did not base an entire argument on a spelling mistake; I made a joke about it. I knew you made a typo and I made fun of you for it. Toughen up, sunshine.

I have never denied owning a tC, why should I? Because some e-thug in Australia, thinks it's lame? Woah. Is. Me. What ever shall I do. I might cry into my keyboard all day long [for the record, that's not going to happen ].

You proposed that because I choose to not race my daily driven tC I am unfit to compare a tC to another car. My comparison of the A4/Porsche (admittedly, I did neglect to include the specific model. So, ex post facto, I was thinking of the Cayman) was illustrating how flawed your logic is. This flawed logic is also shown by your Audi-[unspecified model, I'll assume A4 still since that is what I used]-can-race-in-stock-trim-but-a-Scion-tC-can-not statement.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm sure [Honda/Acura] received a bit of funding but nowhere near what Scion/Toyota is throwing around.

Virtually every manufacturer throws money at teams to get them to use their platform. It's comes out of the mfg's advertising budget. There are a few privateer teams that run in big series races, but most do not last the season.

One make series are also decent ways to promote a car: TDI Cup, Mustang Challenge, Porsche Cup. Though Ford couldn't keep the Mustang Challenge series afloat after only two years and that brand and model are legen...wait for it...dary (and damn fun to flog around the track).

Originally Posted by Dimman

As for the Mazda claim. Two words: Spec Miata. Genuinely grassroots, still factory support for the series but not for individual teams. But again an excellent starting platform, that doesn't need tons of money thrown at it to not suck.

Mazda might pay something for the Spec Miata Series (NASA or SCCA) but a bulk of their support goes to the the teams and drivers in the form of contingency money and deals on replacement parts.

I'm sure Mazda provides funding to the Star Mazda Series, ALMS, Rolex, and Grand Am. They still offer contingency money to the teams & drivers that run in those series--and that is why teams keep Mazdas.

Originally Posted by Dimman

This is my issue with what Toyota's doing. It is doubtful that any team would have chosen a tC platform without all of the factory support that came with the marketing push. Instead of starting with a good car for the Scion racing campaign, they took what is basically a more styled version of the typical Toyota driving appliance and threw a ton of racing money at the racing versions to make them competitive.

I personally wouldn't pick any brand or car for a premier/grassroots series that wasn't going to provide me with support, be it financially or technologically. Sure there are privateers but they rarely make a full season.

Originally Posted by Dimman

As well as a full-race production-based tC may do on the track, it is much further from its stock version's handling and performance traits than for example a TSX or RX-8.

Like you mentioned earlier, the Touring Car rules create a great deal of parity. They require teams to use stock location suspension points, so the geometry is exactly the same as stock; it's just the running gear that is different. FWIW, DGR had to develop their own coilovers for their car and now sells them to consumers. I considered them for my car, but opted for a Koni/Eibach set up since I do not track my car.

Originally Posted by Dimman

PS: He's not a Troll, guys. He's a tC owner that's all...

Gee, thanks for that

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Conversely, grassroots motorsports brings street cred, not racing heritage, so cut out the bullshit. Racing heritage comes from years at racing in top level motorsports; WRC, F1, LeMans, WTCC, BTCC, GT2/GT1 racing, Dakar, Baja etc. and taking home race wins and/or championship trophies while at it. With few exceptions, Toyota has done that in spades.

I disagree. You don't need to be in a premier series to have a racing heritage, nor do I think street cred and heritage are mutually exclusive marketing concepts. If Scion can help grassroots racers get into competitive cars (whether it's tC or an FT-86) and win races and championships, then that will be their heritage.

A racing heritage is not cemented in history with one successful season in one series, but it does have to start somewhere. Most young marquees will not throw tens of millions of dollars at premier series to build a following (look at Hyundai and their backing out of F1 [who could blame them?] before they even got in).