Electric Supercharger - Market Speculation

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I think the main issue for me is, if I'm not mistaken this only activates under full throttle. I'd prefer something a bit more linear.

I wonder if it'd be possible to re-map the throttle to open fully by 50% pedal travel. Then progressively introduce boost from the electric SC over the remaining 50% pedal.

Not sure if this is technically feasibly, just thinking out loud...

That is being worked on with the Procede controller, if I'm not mistaken.

[ATL BRZ]

Give me 7-9 psi at redline built up progressively through the power band, batteries that last 30 minutes at Road Atlanta where I'm WOT for 75% of every lap, and a waiting list that's not almost a year long.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Give me 7-9 psi at redline built up progressively through the power band, batteries that last 30 minutes at Road Atlanta where I'm WOT for 75% of every lap, and a waiting list that's not almost a year long.

This would all be nice. That being said ,as a previous phantom owner, for the price the kit is unbeatable. Really changes the car.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I think the main issue for me is, if I'm not mistaken this only activates under full throttle. I'd prefer something a bit more linear.

I wonder if it'd be possible to re-map the throttle to open fully by 50% pedal travel. Then progressively introduce boost from the electric SC over the remaining 50% pedal.

Not sure if this is technically feasibly, just thinking out loud...

Yes Shiv is working on this as we speak

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I think the main issue for me is, if I'm not mistaken this only activates under full throttle. I'd prefer something a bit more linear.

I wonder if it'd be possible to re-map the throttle to open fully by 50% pedal travel. Then progressively introduce boost from the electric SC over the remaining 50% pedal.

Not sure if this is technically feasibly, just thinking out loud...

Actually, this is pretty much how the kit currently available works. @Robftss developed a two stage Partial Throttle Switch (PTS). So with my kit the ESC gives about 40% boost at 65% throttle and 100% boost at WOT. The boost feels natural and progressive. Now speaking of progress...

As a few ppl have mentioned @Shiv@Openflash has taken this a bit further, and will very soon be releasing (weeks?) an electronic controller that replaces the partial throttle switch entirely. This controller makes the ESC kit full time F.I. This is under his Proceed brand. Details for NC Miata are here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...&postcount=303 . For FT86 I believe @fenton is either testing, perhaps he can chime in. In the meanwhile, here is a big box o' Proceed controller stuffs.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by swarb

Is there really a 100+ person waiting list? How long would that be?
@DAEMANO Can you take me on a test ride? That would seal the deal for me.

1. Yes, the waiting list is that long.

92 people for FT86
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=8449

...and I don't know how long for Miatas.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...567709&page=13

The wait will be determined by production rate. Currently Rob is committed to a slow production rate, but that could change. Rob has a plan that's for sure.

2. Yes, I can take you on a test ride, don't mind at all.
We just have to get together. PM me and we can figure it out.

[xuimod]

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

My suggestion: Don't feed the troll

Yeah yeah. Anybody who criticizes what you do is a troll right?

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

1. Yes, the waiting list is that long.

The wait will be determined by production rate. Currently Rob is committed to a slow production rate, but that could change. Rob has a plan that's for sure.

He's "committed to a slow rate of production" because the Phantom Electric Supercharger is still being beta tested by people who pay thousands of dollars. Bugs are still being worked out. Thousands of dollars to be a beta tester for something that only produces 5 psi? Doesn't make much sense.

Like I said, the Phantom Electric Supercharger is not ready for primetime.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Give me 7-9 psi at redline built up progressively through the power band, batteries that last 30 minutes at Road Atlanta where I'm WOT for 75% of every lap, and a waiting list that's not almost a year long.

Not to give too much away, but there is a path to what you're asking for, it's all a matter of if the developers choose to take up this goal and have the time it will take to test and package this all together. Battery costs climb dramatically when powering larger or multiple motors. If an ESCs' inherent strengths (very low cost, low RPM torque, extremely low weight, lesser complexity, greater reliability) override that increased cost, it could be worth it. As mentioned the current kit is designed to be inexpensive. Those upgrades could add $1000+ to the cost. Funny thing is, that extra cost would still makes an ESC cheaper across the board than the next least expensive FI option. It'll be up to @Robftss and @Shiv@Openflash to decide if they want to bring a product like this to market.

What will be available (as soon as the Proceed controllers are out) is 5.0lbs of non-parasitic boost (about 230 WHP/ 205 WTQ on e85) that peaks at 3400 RPM and drops to 1.7-2 PSI at redline progressively through the powerband that could last your full session (with the Aux charger upgrade) but would have to be tested at your track with your driving style to know for sure. This is something that could be done if I could either, get my car to ATL or get you to CA, haha.

[Target70]

Originally Posted by xuimod

He's "committed to a slow rate of production" because the Phantom Electric Supercharger is still being beta tested by people who pay thousands of dollars. Bugs are still being worked out. Thousands of dollars to be a beta tester for something that only produces 5 psi? Doesn't make much sense.

Like I said, the Phantom Electric Supercharger is not ready for primetime.

I wouldn't really say it is still being tested unless you consider it a longevity test. I have not seen any "bugs" that had to be changed due to widespread faults or failures since maybe the first version 1.0. Every modification that has come out since then has been mods which provide better ease of use, performance upgrades, increased reliability or new features. If he/they wanted to, the older (my current version) esc would have and still could be a viable product. The original xbox started with version 1.0 and ended up a 1.7 by the end of it's production, I wouldn't call version 1.0-1.6 beta versions, just less advanced.
Regardless of the amount of pressure it creates, It is one of if not the best dollar per whp ratio modifications available on this platform. Following your argument, a large percentage of all the intake and exhaust mods don't make sense either as they only gain ~5-20 whp and can and do cost thousands of dollars. (of course to be considered is Where the power is being made)

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

What will be available (as soon as the Proceed controllers are out) is 5.0lbs of non-parasitic boost (about 230 WHP/ 205 WTQ on e85) that peaks at 3400 RPM and drops to 1.7-2 PSI at redline progressively through the powerband that could last your full session (with the Aux charger upgrade) but would have to be tested at your track with your driving style to know for sure. This is something that could be done if I could either, get my car to ATL or get you to CA, haha.

Aux chargers still overheating on track without supplemental cooling?

I'm already at 205whp on E85. I'm not sure +25whp is worth 2 grand and a year of waiting plus lots of DIY solutions to existing issues with the system. The extra low end torque is nice but again the way the boost tapers off on this thing and the time my car spends in the upper RPMs on track just doesn't make sense. A Rotrex SC kit for ~50% more cost is the best solution as the boost ramps up progressively and holds 9psi at redline and makes over 300whp with E85.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Aux chargers still overheating on track without supplemental cooling?

I'm already at 205whp on E85. I'm not sure +25whp is worth 2 grand and a year of waiting plus lots of DIY solutions to existing issues with the system. The extra low end torque is nice but again the way the boost tapers off on this thing and the time my car spends in the upper RPMs on track just doesn't make sense. A Rotrex SC kit for ~50% more cost is the best solution as the boost ramps up progressively and holds 9psi at redline and makes over 300whp with E85.

On thermal limits.
I don't think there was ever an Aux charger that overheated on the track. What you may be remembering is the Primary controller on nlowell's car many months ago that reached it's thermal limit during his lapping sessions. The thermal limit on the primary charger shuts off boost at a specific limit. So two improvements were made here, the addition of the Aux charger to split the charging load across two devices as well as the new primary controller has had it's thermal limits increased (i'll let @fenton or @Robftss speak to that).

The only DIY solution I've ever seen for any issue was nlowell building a duct to pipe fresh air to his Primary controller. This was his experiment alone. Importantly, when you mention "lots of DIY solutions to existing issues with the system" what other issues are you referring to?

On power output, I think it's great that people have their own choices of power options. Let's look at costs.

E85 running on a flex fuel sensor and ECUtek tune - 205 WHP at what total cost of the sensor + tune + license + cable + installation? $1000 - $1500?

E85 running on OFT + Phantom ESC, easy self install, with OTS tune - apx 230 WHP at $2200.00.

Don't get me wrong. I would love full flex fuel support (E0 to E85), and I could get that if I switched tuning options. OpenFlash gives me e50 to e85 which has been livable at no extra cost. One day this may be available on the OFT or with the Proceed controller. We'll see.

On ESC vs Rotrex FI
What Rotrex solution is available for 50% more? That would be roughly $3350.

The JR Kit is generally about $5000 with a tune and $4000 without one. Add tune and install (let's say 5-7 hours @ $100/hr. for a decent shop) and you're knocking on the door of $6000. http://counterspacegarage.com/jackso...s-brz-frs.html

The Kraftwerks kit is $4795 with a tune as well, not including installation. Add installation and you're in the area of $5500
http://store.kraftwerksusa.com/super...ng-ecutek.html

Getting back to the OP's question about why more companies aren't pursuing ESC's qualified by it being perfect for the street, my answer would be:
1. R&D takes a lot of time and money. Rob's aftermarket kit has been in development for over 5 years (if my internet sleuthing is correct). Also other people have attempted to make general purpose kits, but have not taken the time to do FULL integrations with specific platforms (make/models). This is what makes Rob & Shiv's kit more ready for mainstream adoption than previous attempts. They're plug and play, inexpensive, and they work exceedingly well for what they're intended for.

2. Marketing is both critical and expensive. Most people, even gearheads, won't take the time to self educate. Instead they'll form opinions based off of what other people they trust might say. To people without this kind of info the decision gets distilled even further stock car = street car, and modified = track car. Rob's original Phantom ESC kit was intended for use on the street where 99% of car buyers spend their time. HOWEVER, the kit's evolution is expanding it's capabilities. The kit is miles more capable today than even where I first purchased, and it's roughly half the cost of traditional FI. Understand this gray area requires time, attention and patience. Most casual buyers won't invest it.

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

On thermal limits.
I don't think there was ever an Aux charger that overheated on the track. What you may be remembering is the Primary controller on nlowell's car many months ago that reached it's thermal limit during his lapping sessions. The thermal limit on the primary charger shuts off boost at a specific limit. So two improvements were made here, the addition of the Aux charger to split the charging load across two devices as well as the new primary controller has had it's thermal limits increased (i'll let @fenton or @Robftss speak to that).

The only DIY solution I've ever seen for any issue was nlowell building a duct to pipe fresh air to his Primary controller. This was his experiment alone. Importantly, when you mention "lots of DIY solutions to existing issues with the system" what other issues are you referring to?

Thanks for clarifying. That primary controller overheating and the ducting solution was indeed what I was referring to. The other issues (poor word choice) just seem to be DIY improvements and additions that are continuously being made to address things like charging, controlling, batteries. I've been following the development on the ESC from the beginning and trying to stay positive while watching the test results roll in and new features roll out.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

On power output, I think it's great that people have their own choices of power options. Let's look at costs.

E85 running on a flex fuel sensor and ECUtek tune - 205 WHP at what total cost of the sensor + tune + license + cable + installation? $1000 - $1500?

E85 running on OFT + Phantom ESC, easy self install, with OTS tune - apx 230 WHP at $2200.00.

Don't get me wrong. I would love full flex fuel support (E0 to E85), and I could get that if I switched tuning options. OpenFlash gives me e50 to e85 which has been livable at no extra cost. One day this may be available on the OFT or with the Proceed controller. We'll see.

FlexFuel for me is for safety and convenience. I don't want to run my car low on fuel on track and I don't have access to E85 at the track so I always have to switch at some point. I want to be sure my AFR and timing are spot on according to the exact ethanol content I'm running.

Unfortunately OFT cannot do FlexFuel and the reference the custom maps required.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

[
On ESC vs Rotrex FI
What Rotrex solution is available for 50% more? That would be roughly $3350.

The JR Kit is generally about $5000 with a tune and $4000 without one. Add tune and install (let's say 5-7 hours @ $100/hr. for a decent shop) and you're knocking on the door of $6000. http://counterspacegarage.com/jackso...s-brz-frs.html

The Kraftwerks kit is $4795 with a tune as well, not including installation. Add installation and you're in the area of $5500
http://store.kraftwerksusa.com/super...ng-ecutek.html

I was going off the average $2000 cost of the ESC kit in it's entirety compared to the JRSC kit cost of $4000 without a tune, self installed which most choose people do in about 8 hours alone and 5-6 hours with a buddy, since it's the least complex "full-time" FI available.

[Rookie84]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Give me 7-9 psi at redline built up progressively through the power band, batteries that last 30 minutes at Road Atlanta where I'm WOT for 75% of every lap, and a waiting list that's not almost a year long.

+1. Hell, I wouldn't even mind the waiting list if this were possible.

[Mars2]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Thanks for clarifying. That primary controller overheating and the ducting solution was indeed what I was referring to. The other issues (poor word choice) just seem to be DIY improvements and additions that are continuously being made to address things like charging, controlling, batteries. I've been following the development on the ESC from the beginning and trying to stay positive while watching the test results roll in and new features roll out.



FlexFuel for me is for safety and convenience. I don't want to run my car low on fuel on track and I don't have access to E85 at the track so I always have to switch at some point. I want to be sure my AFR and timing are spot on according to the exact ethanol content I'm running.

Unfortunately OFT cannot do FlexFuel and the reference the custom maps required.



I was going off the average $2000 cost of the ESC kit in it's entirety compared to the JRSC kit cost of $4000 without a tune, self installed which most choose people do in about 8 hours alone and 5-6 hours with a buddy, since it's the least complex "full-time" FI available.

2000 to 4000 is not 50% increase it's 100% more increase. Go back to kindergarden math 50 % increase would 2000 plus 2000/2=3000