Electric Supercharger - Market Speculation

[Phantobe]

So, I was kind of thinking about this the other day. It's a rather simple idea so bear with me here

Given the success of the "Full Throttle Electric Supercharger". In case you missed it...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719

Why aren't major companies investing resources into the electric supercharger market? I'm no FI guru, but just based off popularity its by far the bread winner coming in at 385 pages & rightfully so I think.

- Gains: Tuned w/ headers on 93 you net around 50whp & 60wtq peak power. You also net lots of area under the curve.

- Cost Effective: ~$2200 roughly

- Easy to Install

- Less Failure Modes

^These are just a few of the positives, I'm sure there are more.

To me it seems the most practical for the everyday driver. So I'm just begging the question why aren't other companies investing time and resources to produce a more competitive market in this segment?

[Wolfdogelite]

IMO it could have a lot to do with public perception. It's the same reasoning stopping every super-car manufacturer from making a pure electric super-car. Tesla has proven it's possible, but people want that sound, the rumble, and most importantly, for a long time, electric cars have been associated with economy and have been portrayed as the more environmentally friendly alternative to gas and diesel.

The electric supercharger works, and works well, but people don't want to spend money on something new. They want whats tried and true.

[Phantobe]

Originally Posted by Wolfdogelite

IMO it could have a lot to do with public perception. It's the same reasoning stopping every super-car manufacturer from making a pure electric super-car. Tesla has proven it's possible, but people want that sound, the rumble, and most importantly, for a long time, electric cars have been associated with economy and have been portrayed as the more environmentally friendly alternative to gas and diesel.

The electric supercharger works, and works well, but people don't want to spend money on something new. They want whats tried and true.

Eh that's understandable, but when you say public perception I think of non-car enthusiasts. When I think of non-car enthusiasts I think of consumers that wouldn't spend time/money tuning or modding their car. Most would agree that electric power can offer instant power, hence the popularity of the system for this platform.

The engineering is there, the numbers are there, the system keeps evolving. I don't know whats stopping larger comapnies lol. You'd think they'd want a slice of the pie, shit I would while product development is still in its infancy.

[GT86meMR2]

I really find it hilarious when You Go To any of the ESC's Youtube video's You have Guy's in the comments WHO say It's snake Oil and are scientifically trying To prove why the esc cant and wont work i Guess It's al the previous battery powered fans that really fucked up the credibility of This kit...Alot of People wont even believe It really Works even when respected tuners post the video's :p anyway i think the Ebay E fans are Just To fresh in the memory for alot of People At the moment for This kit To Be believabe and viable in todays market.

[Wolfdogelite]

Originally Posted by GT86meMR2

I really find it hilarious when You Go To any of the ESC's Youtube video's You have Guy's in the comments WHO say It's snake Oil and are scientifically trying To prove why the esc cant and wont work i Guess It's al the previous battery powered fans that really fucked up the credibility of This kit...Alot of People wont even believe It really Works even when respected tuners post the video's :p anyway i think the Ebay E fans are Just To fresh in the memory for alot of People At the moment for This kit To Be believabe and viable in todays market.

This is exactly what I was getting at. Keyboard warriors who haven't done any research. . .but they sure have seen that Mighty Car Mods video debunking it! They're going to spread rumors, create bad press and possibly kill any product before it has a chance.

That is an issue, and I think of people who don't know much about cars, but have the money and know a tuning firm or well respected shop that will do it for them. The electric supercharger would be a hard sell to them. They don't want to hear about new stuff, they want the name of a well respected, well known company, with a well known concept or product. People can be weird sometimes.

All that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few guys at some of the big name companies working behind closed doors, trying to figure out how the hell robtfss is doing all that, and doing it so well. If not for an actual product, just to see how it's working as well as it does. At least I hope they are trying it!

[xuimod]

ESC is ok for small power gains but I don't think an ESC can push out more than 7 psi on a consistent everyday basis.... reliably anyways.

7 psi is on the very low end of Turbo's and Superchargers.

Also, with an ESC the batteries are expensive. Like $200-300 for a set and they have to be replaced every 2-3 years iirc. That cost adds up.

To me, ESC's will always be a niche product. I don't think it will ever be found in stock cars out of the factory. The cost savings (the main benefit) is not enough.

Originally Posted by Wolfdogelite

IMO it could have a lot to do with public perception. It's the same reasoning stopping every super-car manufacturer from making a pure electric super-car. Tesla has proven it's possible, but people want that sound, the rumble, and most importantly, for a long time, electric cars have been associated with economy and have been portrayed as the more environmentally friendly alternative to gas and diesel.

The electric supercharger works, and works well, but people don't want to spend money on something new. They want whats tried and true.

As far as electric cars and electric super cars go, its much more than perception. There's not that many electric charging stations out there. Also, charging technology is up to snuff..... using a 240 volt outlet, it takes 1 hour to charge the Tesla to go 31 miles. No one's going to buy that. Who wants to wait 1 hour to charge a car so it can go only an additional 31 miles? Sure you can go to a Tesla Supercharging station but there are not that many out there so that means you basically have to plan your driving around those Supercharging stations.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by xuimod

ESC is ok for small power gains but I don't think an ESC can push out more than 7 psi on a consistent everyday basis.... reliably anyways.

7 psi is on the very low end of Turbo's and Superchargers.

Also, with ESC the batteries are expensive. Like $200-300 for a set and they have to be replaced every 2-3 years iirc. That cost adds up.

To me, ESC's will always be a niche product. I don't think it will ever be found in stock cars out of the factory. The cost savings (the main benefit) is not enough.

Speaking of uninformed public. I think you may have some bad information.

To clear some things up.

1. The limitation that is keeping me from producing over 7 lbs of boost isn't some physical limit but instead simply having enough juice to power a larger electric motor and it's matched centrifugal compressor. This is a matter of battery cost aligning with the overall goals of the Phantom ESC kit (which is to say, low cost, low complexity, and working with OEM hardware (clutch, internals, etc)). Nothing less/more, and not some kind of hard limit.

Still, keep in mind that the 5 PSI my Phantom ESC kit outputs is virtually non-parasitic (unlike traditional F.I.). Because of this every bit of boost matters whereas with a belt driven SC or Turbo there are losses in creating their boost that eat into total output & performance. Also, since an electric motor produces 100% torque at 1 RPM and the compressor instantly begins compressing air. To even further advance this, the compressor can be pre-spooled. What this means is that max boost is available almost immediately. Neither a turbo or SC can match the torque curve of an ESC. This is why Ferrari. McClaren, and Porsche "torque fill" with electric motors in their most extreme models. The 5 PSI from my Phantom ESC is roughly equivalent to 7-8 PSI of a traditional SC or Turbo. If I was producing over 8 PSI with the ESC, I'd be well over 300 BHP.

2. The batteries for my kit are not expensive and do not cost $300 for a set and require replacement every 2-3 years. The base kit batteries cost $125. I've heard nothing ever about a 2-3 year replacement cycle. BTW, I've been running my kit since last Feb 2014.

The base kit requires 2 of these @ $39 ea.
http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-12...oduct=PS-12180

and 1 of these @ $45
http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-ps...id-battery.asp

You can upgrade your batteries if you like, but that's not required.

3. ESCs are new yes, but niche... nope.
Many OEMs have ESCs in the near pipeline for production vehicles. @Robftss is the first person to successfully bring a commercial aftermarket ESC kit to the masses. Since then @Shiv@Openflash has adapted the Phantom kit for use in the NC Miata which he has successfully commercially adapted. Shiv is also introducing Electronic motor control to the compressor to make this kit Full time F.I. He's also installed the kit in his Elise, and most recently twin charged his Audi R8 (see below).

This kit is being aggressively developed, and improved. I'd be willing to bet that in a year's time, there will be more Phantom ESC kits in the wild than many of the traditional F.I. kits currently offered.

Volvo's New Electric Supercharger - What is it?
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...rger-explained

Next Audi Q7 to Debut with Electric Turbocharger?
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/22/a...harger-report/

Audi Electric Bi-Turbo Engine Revealed
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11209204...ngine-revealed

Audi brings its electric turbocharger closer to production with RS 5 TDI concept
http://www.gizmag.com/audi-electric-...s-5-tdi/32619/

Electric Supercharger Boosts Torque 50% and Reduces CO2 by 20%
http://www.treehugger.com/cars/elect...co2-by-20.html

HyBoost shows off electric supercharger in Ford Focus
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...g-for-everyone

Next Subaru WRX to Use Electric Turbocharger (older article)
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/03/n...-turbocharger/

Will BMW's Electric Turbocharger End Turbo Lag?
http://jalopnik.com/5855317/will-bmw...-end-turbo-lag

BMW Pairs Electric & Traditional Turbos to Boost Efficiency
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...ost-efficiency

[xuimod]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Speaking of uninformed public. I think you may have some bad information.

To clear some things up.

1. The limitation that is keeping me from producing over 7 lbs of boost isn't some physical limit but instead simply having enough juice to power a larger electric motor and it's matched centrifugal compressor. This is a matter of battery cost aligning with the overall goals of the Phantom ESC kit (which is to say, low cost, low complexity, and working with OEM hardware (clutch, internals, etc)). Nothing less/more, and not some kind of hard limit.

Still, keep in mind that the 5 PSI my Phantom ESC kit outputs is virtually non-parasitic (unlike traditional F.I.). Because of this every bit of boost matters whereas with a belt driven SC or Turbo there are losses in creating their boost that eat into total output & performance. Also, since an electric motor produces 100% torque at 1 RPM and the compressor instantly begins compressing air. To even further advance this, the compressor can be pre-spooled. What this means is that max boost is available almost immediately. Neither a turbo or SC can match the torque curve of an ESC. This is why Ferrari. McClaren, and Porsche "torque fill" with electric motors in their most extreme models. The 5 PSI from my Phantom ESC is roughly equivalent to 7-8 PSI of a traditional SC or Turbo. If I was producing over 8 PSI with the ESC, I'd be well over 300 BHP.

2. The batteries for my kit are not expensive and do not cost $300 for a set and require replacement every 2-3 years. The base kit batteries cost $125. I've heard nothing ever about a 2-3 year replacement cycle. BTW, I've been running my kit since last Feb 2014.

The base kit requires 2 of these @ $39 ea.
http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-12...oduct=PS-12180

and 1 of these @ $45
http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-ps...id-battery.asp

You can upgrade your batteries if you like, but that's not required.

3. ESCs are new yes, but niche... nope.
Many OEMs have ESCs in the near pipeline for production vehicles. @Robftss is the first person to successfully bring a commercial aftermarket ESC kit to the masses. Since then @Shiv@Openflash has adapted the Phantom kit for use in the NC Miata which he has successfully commercially adapted. Shiv is also introducing Electronic motor control to the compressor to make this kit Full time F.I. He's also installed the kit in his Elise, and most recently twin charged his Audi R8 (see below).

This kit is being aggressively developed, and improved. I'd be willing to bet that in a year's time, there will be more Phantom ESC kits in the wild than many of the traditional F.I. kits currently offered.

Volvo's New Electric Supercharger - What is it?
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...rger-explained

Next Audi Q7 to Debut with Electric Turbocharger?
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/22/a...harger-report/

Audi Electric Bi-Turbo Engine Revealed
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11209204...ngine-revealed

Audi brings its electric turbocharger closer to production with RS 5 TDI concept
http://www.gizmag.com/audi-electric-...s-5-tdi/32619/

Electric Supercharger Boosts Torque 50% and Reduces CO2 by 20%
http://www.treehugger.com/cars/elect...co2-by-20.html

HyBoost shows off electric supercharger in Ford Focus
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...g-for-everyone

Next Subaru WRX to Use Electric Turbocharger (older article)
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/03/n...-turbocharger/

Will BMW's Electric Turbocharger End Turbo Lag?
http://jalopnik.com/5855317/will-bmw...-end-turbo-lag

BMW Pairs Electric & Traditional Turbos to Boost Efficiency
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...ost-efficiency

If the size of the battery is what is preventing the Phantom ESC from pushing more than 5 psi than that IS a physical limitation.

The batteries for the Phantom ESC V2 ARE $300.

1 small starter battery, $110: http://www.batterymart.com/p-odyssey-pc680-battery.html

2 dump batteries, $100 each: http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Cra...6-Battery.html

About the 'OEM Electric Superchargers': In the pipeline? There's a difference between research and actually having something for production. You saw the BRZ Sti concept car right? So I guess the 450hp BRZ STi is in the pipeline and going to be produced for the masses right?

Those electric supercharger OEM systems are nice but most of examples you provided have very little to do with the Phantom Supercharger. The Phantom Supercharger is powered by batteries. Most of the examples you gave actually have turbochargers powering an electric supercharger.

And all of them are in development, meaning they might not even make it to production. These systems, if produced, will be complicated and expensive.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by xuimod

If the size of the battery is what is preventing the Phantom ESC from pushing more than 5 psi than that IS a physical limitation.

The batteries for the Phantom ESC V2 ARE $300.

1 small starter battery, $110: http://www.batterymart.com/p-odyssey-pc680-battery.html

2 dump batteries, $100 each: http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Cra...6-Battery.html

About the 'OEM Electric Superchargers': In the pipeline? There's a difference between research and actually having something for production. You saw the BRZ Sti concept car right? So I guess the 450hp BRZ STi is in the pipeline right?

Those electric supercharger OEM systems are nice but most of examples you provide have very little to do with the Phantom Supercharger. The Phantom Supercharger is powered by batteries. Most of the examples you gave actually have turbochargers powering an electric supercharger.

And all of them are in development, meaning they might not even make it to production. These systems, if produced, will be complicated and expensive.

1. The boost output could be increased if Rob / Shiv feel that the additional cost of larger batteries fit the profile of their products. It's not as if greater battery capacity doesn't exist. Greater battery capacity would simply increase the price. This is not a physical limitation, it's a cost consideration.

2. No, a person doesn't have to buy v2 batteries if they don't choose to. I run a mix of v1 and v2 batteries of my choosing. It would have been fine to continue running my original v1 batteries (the ones I listed). This equipment is there at my own discretion. The v1's worked just fine and Rob still has them posted on his updated site. http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/batteries.html . Update. The 1.5 upgrade is now being sold as part of the most recent kit. Those batteries are $22 each. http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-ps...id-battery.asp http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/...ubaru-brz.html

3. Your point was ESCs will always be a niche product. But when multiple OEMs are working on similar tech all at once, it points directly at the mainstream. However even if you choose to discard that evidence we can simply look at the 30+ Phantom '86 kits and who knows how many Miata OpenFlash kits in the wild plus the likely 100+ buyers on waiting lists. This is with practically no advertising (just word of mouth). That enthusiasm points towards a mainstream arc and not a niche product.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=8449

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=567709

IMO the current facts don't support your conclusion, you may not agree with that and that's ok. Getting accurate info out there is objective my reply, not to change your mind.

[xuimod]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

1. The boost output could be increased if Rob / Shiv feel that the additional cost of larger batteries fit the profile of their products. It's not as if greater battery capacity doesn't exist. Greater battery capacity would simply increase the price. This is not a physical limitation, it's a cost consideration.

2. No, a person doesn't have to buy v2 batteries if they don't choose to. I run a mix of v1 and v2 batteries of my choosing. It would have been fine to continue running my original v1 batteries (the ones I listed). This equipment is there at my own discretion. The v1's worked just fine and Rob still has them posted on his updated site. http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/batteries.html . Update. The 1.5 upgrade is now being sold as part of the most recent kit. Those batteries are $22 each. http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-ps...id-battery.asp http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/...ubaru-brz.html

3. Your point was ESCs will always be a niche product. But when multiple OEMs are working on similar tech all at once, it points directly at the mainstream. However even if you choose to discard that evidence we can simply look at the 30+ Phantom '86 kits and who knows how many Miata OpenFlash kits in the wild plus the likely 100+ buyers on waiting lists. This is with practically no advertising (just word of mouth). That enthusiasm points towards a mainstream arc and not a niche product.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=8449

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=567709

IMO the current facts don't support your conclusion, you may not agree with that and that's ok. Getting accurate info out there is objective my reply, not to change your mind.

Sorry you sound like a fanboy. 30+ ESC kits is hardly indicative of something going mainstream. In fact, that's a sign of a niche product if I ever saw one.

And look at how slowly they are being produced (6-8 month waiting list; bugs still being worked out).... its not ready for primetime.

About ESC batteries: The Phantom V1 is no longer being produced. Only V2 kits are being sold and produced now (and again, at a very slow pace..... 6-8 month waiting list). Why would someone mix V1 and V2 batteries in a V2 kit?

About OEM ESC's: Those examples you gave are not pure ESC's, they are turbo kit/ESC hybrids. Pure ESC's (which is what the OP meant) will always be niche. I would be shocked if a car manufacturer produced a car with a pure ESC that's battery powered (as opposed to powered by a turbocharger).

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by xuimod

Sorry you sound like a fanboy. 30+ ESC kits is hardly indicative of something going mainstream. In fact, that's a sign of a niche product if I ever saw one.

And look at how slowly they are being produced (6-8 month waiting list; bugs still being worked out).... its not ready for primetime.

About ESC batteries: The Phantom V1 is no longer being produced. Only V2 kits are being sold and produced now (and again, at a very slow pace..... 6-8 month waiting list). Why would someone mix V1 and V2 batteries in a V2 kit?

About OEM ESC's: Those examples you gave are not pure ESC's, they are turbo kit/ESC hybrids. Pure ESC's (which is what the OP meant) will always be niche. I would be shocked if a car manufacturer produced a car with a pure ESC that's battery powered (as opposed to powered by a turbocharger).

Not a fanboy but a 1st batch owner (Since Feb 2014). My first hand experience and attention to this products' development have informed my opinion. What's informing yours? I've been very satisfied, and have seen the momentum for Rob & Shiv's ESC integrations build enough to understand that its' on a strong upswing. The Phantom ESC kit is an FI option that

• Costs about $2000
• Makes just enough power to not require supporting upgrades (clutch, axles, tires, etc)
• Has a more enjoyable torque curve than the next closest competitors
• Can be self installed in 2 hours
• Can be self removed in 30 minutes
• Adds very little weight
• Adds much less complexity than other FI options
• Is likely (much) more reliable than other FI options

Sales of the Phantom ESC have only to be limited by production, not the markets' opinion of the kit. By carefully and deliberately producing small batches, Rob has ensured early customer support, product quality, and flow rate are controlled. This is good business practice, not a sign of slow uptake.

Also, for an entirely new F.I. technology, 30+ kits + 100 person waiting list in 1 year is phenomenal. Individually how many installed Innovative kits are on this board? How many individually installed Greddy, SBD, FBM, etc?

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you of my point, I can handle you having your own perspective (even if your post history suggests a hard bias and combativeness against anything OpenFlash). I simply disagree with your conclusions. I think your posts points are guided by that aforementioned bias and by being too far removed from the actual product to be very meaningful. I mean do you own a kit? Ok, do you have a friend that does? Have you drove or ridden in an equipped car? Have you seen a installed kit in person? Have you read through the Phantom ESC thread? Once again, what's informing your conclusion?

I am definitely looking forward to seeing where all this lands over the years. Personally I don't see R&D, production, orders, or additional integrations stopping or even slowing. 14 months ago in the Phantom ESC thread there were a bunch of naysayers. Later the same appeared in the OpenFlashESC Miata threads. Where are those people now? They're certainly not posting in those threads anymore. I wonder why? Look, I'm all for you also watching the continued evolution of this tech. I'm definitely interested in hearing what you'll have to say about it come April 2016.

[Shiv@Openflash]

My suggestion: Don't feed the troll

[swarb]

Is there really a 100+ person waiting list? How long would that be?
@DAEMANO Can you take me on a test ride? That would seal the deal for me.

[DarkSunrise]

I think the main issue for me is, if I'm not mistaken this only activates under full throttle. I'd prefer something a bit more linear.

I wonder if it'd be possible to re-map the throttle to open fully by 50% pedal travel. Then progressively introduce boost from the electric SC over the remaining 50% pedal.

Not sure if this is technically feasibly, just thinking out loud...