4th gen ND Mazda MX-5 Miata

[DAEMANO]

@strat61caster
Seeing as how Fiat and Mazda developed the Miata jointly, my assumption is that both Mazda and Fiat powertrains were part of the design process. I doubt the 124 will be front drive despite Marchionne. It should end up being one seriously fun car.

[fatoni]

mazda has taken an awful lot of care in making sure the miata hasnt really changed. i dont see why they would do anything too radical now. i get a little confused when people here use a lack of power to criticize a car that basically does all the the fun stuff our cars do but better. the argument of an frs to miata is shockingly similar to the argument of 370 to frs.

[df.dima]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

@strat61caster
Seeing as how Fiat and Mazda developed the Miata jointly, my assumption is that both Mazda and Fiat powertrains were part of the design process. I doubt the 124 will be front drive despite Marchionne. It should end up being one seriously fun car.

There were pictures on miata.net of white NC mule with Fiat engine in it. So it may happen some day.

[funwheeldrive]

I might have missed it, but does the ND have a standard LSD or is it still an option?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

So honestly, I have no idea what the hype is all about.

I think it's a matter of perspective. No car in this day and age (barring the supercars with incomprehensible powertrains and onboard computers that can run video games) is going to be revolutionary, Mazda isn't suddenly going to make the Miata a 300 hp 3,000 lb coupe and they shouldn't.

To me the hype is they made a car with the same weight as an NA Miata with a 1.8L and added 25 hp and ft-lbs of torque. I think the most G's I've ever experienced was flying around a track in an NA with sticky tires, I've never felt more like I was trying to be ejected from the seat. It was probably the slowest car I was in all day but it was mind blowing how capable a good chassis was.

And this one is going to manufactured with modern materials, analysis tools, manufacturing processes and more power to boot? All for basically the same money as than the one in 1994? Hot Damn.

Maybe I'm just a simpleton impressed with the standard march of time and progress, but I'm excited even though I have no plans to buy (not a convertible guy) in the immediate future.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

@strat61caster
Seeing as how Fiat and Mazda developed the Miata jointly, my assumption is that both Mazda and Fiat powertrains were part of the design process. I doubt the 124 will be front drive despite Marchionne. It should end up being one seriously fun car.

No doubt Fiat is positive their engine will fit, it seems like they threw a bunch of money Mazda's way to be able to use the chassis. I'm more worried that something will get missed in translation, outside of the initial announcement I don't think I've seen FCA standing side by side with Mazda at all, I don't get the impression they are collaborating as closely as Toyobaru did and even they had tensions without a language and culture barrier.

"In an official joint statement Fiat Group Automobiles and Mazda Motor Corporation say they have "signed a non-binding Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) for the development and manufacturing of a new roadster for the Mazda and Alfa Romeo marques based on Mazda's next-generation MX-5 rear-wheel-drive architecture.""

"It goes on to say they "will develop two differentiated, distinctly styled, iconic and brand-specific light weight, roadsters featuring rear-wheel drive. The Alfa Romeo and Mazda variants will each be powered by specific proprietary engines unique to each brand.""

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...in-2015-35189/

"The Spider, by contrast, likely will be fitted with either a 1.4-liter turbo four shared with the Fiat 500 Abarth or a version of the 1.7-liter turbocharged four from the Alfa Romeo 4C. Expect the Fiat/Abarth to use a dual-clutch automatic."
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-miata-feature

Doubt they'll put the 1.7L in, it'd be a monster for a fraction of the price of the 4C but the DCT sentiment is worrying...

idk, guess my point is that I'm not confident Fiat will deliver a product worth buying if they deliver anything at all. There's a lot to mess up if the only thing known for sure is the 'architecture' with suspension, wiring, ergonomics, aesthetics, durability, reliability, and possibly assembly left to the Italians.

[tahdizzle]

@strat61caster

Quoting out of context.

After ONLY shedding 115 lbs from the Previous Gen Mazda. Which probably was all saved in just the engine and transmission. I do not understand the hype.

If they just switched out the engine and transmission in the previous gen Miata, you would probably have the exact same car.

Once again, I don't understand the hype.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

@strat61caster

Quoting out of context.

After ONLY shedding 115 lbs from the Previous Gen Mazda. Which probably was all saved in just the engine and transmission. I do not understand the hype.

If they just switched out the engine and transmission in the previous gen Miata, you would probably have the exact same car.

Once again, I don't understand the hype.

115lbs is around the difference between a Suzuki Hayabusa engine + gearbox combo (~170lbs) and your typical 1.8L FWD transaxle (~300lbs for a 2ZR-FE + C59). That's the one place where shedding mass is incredibly hard. I would guess that they lost at most 20 lbs off the engine and transmission together.

When you consider that Porsche only managed to shave <3% off the 981 from the 987 while using aluminum extensively, I think Mazda has done a pretty good job. Remember, each new iteration of chassis gets stiffer too.

If I were to buy a 2 seater I would strongly prefer hardtop and MR layout not FR but there's no denying the new Miata is a great machine. It's going to be faster than the FRS and they even made it look pretty good.

[Entroper]

There have been pictures published of the Fiat mule, with a 1.4 L turbo under the hood, RWD.

http://jalopnik.com/step-inside-the-...-in-1571275617

The big F2C sticker designates the 1.4 MultiAir.

[strat61caster]

@tahdizzle

Well don't know how to help you then buddy, all I can do is explain why I'm hyped

And by my count 2480-2332=148 lbs

That ain't anything to sneeze at imo, people blow thousands of dollars to save 5 lbs. with a carbon fiber hood. With every iteration Mazda has produced a more capable Miata even with weight increases, this time they made it more capable with a weight decrease:

What's Special About It?
Mazda redesigned the next-generation Miata from the ground up. The engine moves closer to the roadster's center, which helps achieve the sports-cars ideal of 50 percent front/50 percent rear weight distribution, and sits a half-inch lower.
A revised rear suspension design, a stiffer chassis and reduced mass help revive the sharp handling performance that has dulled as the Miata has grown and aged. We drove it and the improvement is dramatic. Aluminum used in suspension components and select body panels, along with a lighter convertible soft top, contributes to a weight savings of more than 220 pounds.*

http://www.edmunds.com/mazda/mx-5-mi...16/#fullreview

* Yup, Euro version, point stands though.


What would have impressed you? Honestly I'm wondering what it would take. I get your point, they could have slapped in the Skyactiv powertrain, massaged the NC chassis and switched to some lighter components, shed ~100 lbs and dropped the price a couple grand, why bother with an all new chassis and design?

Because it's the little things that make the difference. Like the Toyobaru having a rediculously low c.g. with a boxer sacrificing the option of a widely used high output I4 in favor of improving the feel.

Edit: And if the new model is not a significant enough change it most certainly will drive the price of the outgoing model down, with first and second year NC's dipping into $10k territory it's a good time to be an enthusiast.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

115lbs is around the difference between a Suzuki Hayabusa engine + gearbox combo (~170lbs) and your typical 1.8L FWD transaxle (~300lbs for a 2ZR-FE + C59). That's the one place where shedding mass is incredibly hard. I would guess that they lost at most 20 lbs off the engine and transmission together.

When you consider that Porsche only managed to shave <3% off the 981 from the 987 while using aluminum extensively, I think Mazda has done a pretty good job. Remember, each new iteration of chassis gets stiffer too.

If I were to buy a 2 seater I would strongly prefer hardtop and MR layout not FR but there's no denying the new Miata is a great machine. It's going to be faster than the FRS and they even made it look pretty good.

I was with you until here...

Let's not go overboard though.

It'll have a similar power to weight ratio, but the Miata's 155hp at the crank means about 131ish at the wheels. The Miata won't be a fast car or a quick car in stock form. It won't be quicker or faster in stock trim than an 86 which has a substantial amount more HP and better aero (which matters when talking about speed in a lightweight car). Around a corner on equal tires I also doubt the Miata will be faster or quicker than an 86 possibly not even on the 86's Primacys.

Also not a fan of the looks. The front seems styled to try to evoke some kind of masculinity and not as the result of purposeful design. The rear horribly out of proportion and dare I say the worst of this new batch of modern sports cars (sans the 1st gen Boxsters' center exhaust "dog's anus"). I hope Fiat does better with the styling.

With all that being said, don't get me wrong, I like the car. Lightweight, NA, fun to chuck around and hopefully at the right price point.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Entroper

There have been pictures published of the Fiat mule, with a 1.4 L turbo under the hood, RWD.

http://jalopnik.com/step-inside-the-...-in-1571275617

The big F2C sticker designates the 1.4 MultiAir.

Thanks, was about to post this. Here's the pics for those who don't want to clicky (but please do clicky).

Fiat 1.4 L turbo 124 test mule. This is no pie in the sky. It's happening. Get used to it.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

To me the hype is they made a car with the same weight as an NA Miata with a 1.8L and added 25 hp and ft-lbs of torque. I think the most G's I've ever experienced was flying around a track in an NA with sticky tires, I've never felt more like I was trying to be ejected from the seat. It was probably the slowest car I was in all day but it was mind blowing how capable a good chassis was.

And this one is going to manufactured with modern materials, analysis tools, manufacturing processes and more power to boot? All for basically the same money as than the one in 1994? Hot Damn.

Yeah to me, the new Miata is a return to its roots. It's nearly as light as the original, but with more hp/tq, better chassis rigidity, and modern-day safety and emissions.

Miata haters will continue to hate the formula of light car and light engine. But those purists who loved the old Miatas (especially NA and NB models) should find a lot to like about the new ND.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

It'll have a similar power to weight ratio, but the Miata's 155hp at the crank means about 131ish at the wheels. The Miata won't be a fast car or a quick car in stock form. It won't be quicker or faster in stock trim than an 86 which has a substantial amount more HP and better aero (which matters when talking about speed in a lightweight car).

Twins will have a better hp/weight ratio.

- 2332 lbs / 155 hp = 15.05 (Miata)
- 2758 lbs / 200 hp = 13.79 (Twins)

But the new Miata should have a better torque/weight ratio.

- 2332 lbs / 148 lbs-ft = 15.76 (Miata)
- 2758 lbs / 151 lbs-ft = 18.26 (Twins)

You're probably right that the Twins hp and aero advantage will make it the quicker car, but it'll be interesting to see how much the Miata's torque advantage closes that gap.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

It'll have a similar power to weight ratio, but the Miata's 155hp at the crank means about 131ish at the wheels. The Miata won't be a fast car or a quick car in stock form. It won't be quicker or faster in stock trim than an 86 which has a substantial amount more HP and better aero (which matters when talking about speed in a lightweight car). Around a corner on equal tires I also doubt the Miata will be faster or quicker than an 86 possibly not even on the 86's Primacys.

First of all I think 155hp is more understated than the FA20's 200hp. We all have seen how low the dyno numbers come out to be for the twins. 155hp is a joke for a 2L engine. Toyota's old 4GR-FSE with single fuel injectors made 200hp from 2.5L and a single cam profile, and that's pretty typical of the first generation direct injection engines; barely any more peak power, but better powerband. Peak power to weight ratio should come out to around the same IMO.

But then even if you're only looking at the high rev ranges, the Miata's engine probably has similar power around 5000rpm but it's pulling way less mass. If 155hp is true, then the power just drops off faster after 6000. So on the track, the Miata will pull away at first when accelerating and then the twins might catch up a little when the Miata runs out of steam at high revs assuming 155hp peak power is correct.

I think on lower speed tracks the Miata will definitely be the faster car due to having better average acceleration. On higher speed tracks the twins have more peak power and probably slightly better aerodynamics and may have the advantage.

And remember this is the stock engine. I feel like it should be possible to coax 170+ hp out of the 2L Skyactiv engine pretty easily, considering that it already has very well designed headers.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

First of all I think 155hp is more understated than the FA20's 200hp. We all have seen how low the dyno numbers come out to be for the twins. 155hp is a joke for a 2L engine. Toyota's old 4GR-FSE with single fuel injectors made 200hp from 2.5L and a single cam profile, and that's pretty typical of the first generation direct injection engines; barely any more peak power, but better powerband. Peak power to weight ratio should come out to around the same IMO.

But then even if you're only looking at the high rev ranges, the Miata's engine probably has similar power around 5000rpm but it's pulling way less mass. If 155hp is true, then the power just drops off faster after 6000. So on the track, the Miata will pull away at first when accelerating and then the twins might catch up a little when the Miata runs out of steam at high revs assuming 155hp peak power is correct.

I think on lower speed tracks the Miata will definitely be the faster car due to having better average acceleration. On higher speed tracks the twins have more peak power and probably slightly better aerodynamics and may have the advantage.

Even on low speed tracks, RPMs are kept high. You know this right?