Still can't decide on AT or MT for your first FRS/BRZ? This may help...

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by raphymartinez

I was able to "drive" an auto this past Wednesday (i say "drive" because it was just a quick up the street run that was probably less than a mile total) and I liked how fast it shifts but would LOVE more feel in the shifts. I guess it's too smooth?
I really enjoyed how my GTI with DSG felt when shifting and even though I understand this one is more of a traditional AT with torque converter it would be nice if they could emulate that feel in the FR-S' AT with some sort of software tweak.

Maybe Moto can respond to my response here.... Isn't there a "sport mode" for the auto that allows snappier shifts that might be more DSG-like? If so did you use it? When I test drove the auto I forgot about this possibility, I just moved the shifter over to the left (the M position) but did not press any buttons. Probably going to M does automatically puts you in Sport mode too.

I am still on the fence, test drove both, but the manual drive was short (5 minutes). I thought the paddle shifting was about as good as you could get short of a Porsche double-clutch system. Even almost-instant double-downshifts right at your fingertips. Still I am a bit concerned about it feeling a little bit too much like driving a racing sim - I do enough of that on my PC! I totally agree that it makes near-the-limit cornering much more effective and far more enjoyable for those of us who don't heel-toe, you can downshift at optimal times while trail-braking without worrying about breaking the rear out thanks to the rev-matching. I am doing a longer test drive with a manual as soon as the dealer has his demonstrator, and may change my order to auto depending on that experience.

[SUB-FT86]

I like smooth upshifts so that doesn't sound like a negative for me.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Moto-P

Which means simply, you should get a manual, I never said there is anything wrong with that either.
Underpowered is all relative as I grew up with 96hp Honda Civic in 1985, and 110hp AE86. So 197 in this car is plenty for me to have plenty of fun, as I my first FRS of many in the future is not tied to the role of competition use. Time wasted in shifting also suck power too in relating to the clock spinning against your skills in a modern race environment, and a close ratio box kept me busy enough that with 30 minutes to get accustomed to the car, I wasn't going faster in by the time I reached the start/finish line.
But again, not convincing you to get a AT, here. Just guiding some folks who are caught in making up their minds. I know the benefits of both. I raced for the last 20 years on every competition from amateur drift events to SCCA Nationals.

Yes, with the AT being so tailored to sports use ever more than before for a mere $25,000 car, the MT was allowed to be tuned much more to the enthusiasts needs, dedicated to the track, I am merely saying that for such role, of course the gears are nicely packed, but for real competition, the tightly packed gears need also be optimized at the differential final drive to suit the track and competition. THat's the nice part about the manual, that is hard-core ready. But as such, its a bit hard for a guy who isn't spending 30 days a week on the raceway. If the compomises made here seems dumb to you, then that's the extent of your tolerances and it's your choice. AT's gears are very appropriate and offers the best compromises for my needs as a part time Sunday track car, and a commuter, with just enough dab of sports to keep me entertained, unlike an old lazy slushbox offered for most other cars.

And you are exactly right, in saying "less sporting roles" but the entire FRS is pretty sporting in both forms, and MT choice is even more a race-ready platform and should cater to you well. For some, the MT might be a little TOO competition oriented if it was to be put in roles other than smoking laps or tires on part of its life as an automobile for getting around as well. As for those folks, I think the FRS's AT has hit the right mark on a balance that can be enjoyed.

It's a difference between MOST(AT) and BEST(MT) is the best way I can put it, and this ONLY applies to the FRS/BRZ's AT.
AT being the better car for MOST of what you do.
MT being the better car for BEST of why you have a sports car.

Fair enough, to each his own of course! Personally I wouldn't consider an automatic transmission unless the car already has silly power levels (i.e. 400-450 hp).

[whtchocla7e]

As someone who will never see the track (not into it), I will enjoy manual shifting.

The AT in my current VW is so dumb that I'd sworn to get a manual next time. This stupid automated piece of machinery will do anything to get into the max gear. God forbid I take my foot off the accelerator while it tries to shift up - my face lands on the windshield.

Yes, I know the technology has improved and my AT is no comparison to that of a modern sport car's but a machine will never predict what I want to do and when I want to do it. And I don't give a crap what they want to do - not gonna drive the way some fool programmed me at the factory.

[StuttterButtter]

Great write up Moto you make great points on the AT for this car. I just couldn't see MYSELF having this car in a AT especially a car this sporty. + AT DD cars have no excitement in them for me and i get bored of driving them fast. I had a 1990 Celica GTS AT for 5 years i loved that car to death but after that car i said id never get another AT unless it was a luxury car. And i think my friends would be like "why the hell did you get a AT"

Originally Posted by whtchocla7e

The AT in my current VW

VW = Volkswagen? if so that's all you had to say.

VW AT are joke if you don't take perfect care of it and even then they still have problems. My 90 Celica GTS had 240k miles when i sold it with the original trans and i never had a problem at all.

[Moto-P]

Here's another suggestion. Just assume that the MANUAL transmission on the FRS is PERFECT as such, and I can attest that the most critical of journalists and pro drivers all approve and commend on the shift process, gear ratios, and build, as well as clutch actuation. And be confident that if you choose a manual, it is one of the best in the industry, and that your expectations are met.

SOOO!! Having said this, it is the automatic in the FRS that needs a bit of seat time to see the real greatness. In the NORMAL mode, things are just plain as a Camry in operation. No fun there right? But if you have time, push the VSC to SPORT, and Transmision shift pattern to SPORT (two green lights come on indicating SPORT VSC, and SPORT) Here, the transmission is still very automatic, but will go into a mode where if you are sporting the car, the transmission is programmed to maximize power, and allow for vigorous motions and even intuitively know you are braking into a corner apex, and shift DOWN accordingly at the moment it chooses this is appropriate. I took a few laps in this mode and once I understood what it was doing at what occasion, it was quite fun and appropriately making decsions for me. I say that is ideal for canyon roads where you want to enjoy some sports driving, but leaving you with some critical control margins to help you safely get through the unexpected with VSC still keeping check on extreme behaviors like unintentional under or over-steer of large degree whether by driver error or hitting a big patch of sand or water. This won't eliminate stupid driving but it sure does help in making the right choice when your $30,000 car purchase is on the line (VSC is also on MT as well, but not tied to the brain of shifting patterns like the AT, obviously)

If you have the time, you can test the "hidden" feature too, where you press on the TRC switch for more than 3 seconds, which eliminates ALL ASSIST. and two yellow lamps on the dash indicate OFF OFF. Here you have full MANUAL control of the transmission, allowing you to hit and stay on the rev limit if you choose to do so. And also, to change gear anywhere in the range as long as the next lower gear will not over-rev the engine beyond the limit. It will also allow your car to spin, fall off the road, smoke tires, kill parts, just as if you had a manual.

Only thing you can't do really, is the clutch pedal drop to instantly disengage the driveline... Which isn't really a feature but a necessity in changing gears on a manual transmission. Well if drifting is your thing, then yes a manual does have the ability to intentionally disrupt the contact patch by sending driveline shocks, (called clutch kicking by us who do this, a term we invented in Japan back in the 80's but being the same thing that Rally drivers did since the beginning of time). But alternate method of e-brake to break contact patch is also available to AT users just as well, and for all but the competition drifters, this can be used to initiate a drift. Advanced pro drifting does require driveline shocking to maintain a long drift where the car isn't behaving well enough, or doesn't have the power and gear ratios to sustain the wheel-spin, but at this level of needs and prupose, everyone SHOULD have a manual for that anyway. Just saying it isn't impossible even for the AT to enjoy a fun day in a safe drift day environment.

Digressing here a bit so I'll go back to saying...

TRY the AT by spending more time test driving it, as this is really more the odd-ball choice where unexpected pleasures can be coaxed, only by knowing how to use it in different modes of operation, and is less traditional of the two. Get to know the magic of this one, by spending lots of time on this. As once you do, its pretty addictive and capable, despite our own preconception of how much we hated the AT in the past. All I am saying here is check this AT out well, as in the hands of someone who might want a Camry ease on a daily basis, its a pretty delightful thing to see it behave so enjoyably even for a seasoned MT lover, in a revolutionary way.

Manual is a manual, its as slick as ever and we all already know how to use one, if you know how to drive one. If you made up your mind on the manual, I will just say DO that as I wouldn't doubt your choice based on desires to have a MT.

That would be my best suggestion for a person going to test-drive an FRS.

I ejnoy the manual more on almost every sports oriented car I drive, but this is one AT that won my heart for the time being...and the first ever to do so.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by whtchocla7e

As someone who will never see the track (not into it), I will enjoy manual shifting.

The AT in my current VW is so dumb that I'd sworn to get a manual next time. This stupid automated piece of machinery will do anything to get into the max gear. God forbid I take my foot off the accelerator while it tries to shift up - my face lands on the windshield.

Yes, I know the technology has improved and my AT is no comparison to that of a modern sport car's but a machine will never predict what I want to do and when I want to do it. And I don't give a crap what they want to do - not gonna drive the way some fool programmed me at the factory.

Even if the "FOOL" that programmed it is a Nurburgring Meister, H.Naruse who also programmed the LFA? And was double checked for 18 months by many other high caliber race car drivers? and made assured and approved by the CEO Akio Toyoda who is also a licensed Class A JAF race car driver? and poured with passion of Mr.Tada?

Not telling you to buy one, just telling you to TRY one, if you are curious enough to see why the heck I chose one, being a MT lover just like you.

Yes I hate the VW system as well, even the DSG...I don't even like most VW manual's clunky shift feel!! They didn't win me over, like this one.

[StuttterButtter]

Originally Posted by Moto-P

Here's another suggestion. Just assume that the MANUAL transmission on the FRS is PERFECT as such, and I can attest that the most critical of journalists and pro drivers all approve and commend on the shift process, gear ratios, and build, as well as clutch actuation. And be confident that if you choose a manual, it is one of the best in the industry, and that your expectations are met.

SOOO!! Having said this, it is the automatic in the FRS that needs a bit of seat time to see the real greatness. In the NORMAL mode, things are just plain as a Camry in operation. No fun there right? But if you have time, push the VSC to SPORT, and Transmision shift pattern to SPORT (two green lights come on indicating SPORT VSC, and SPORT) Here, the transmission is still very automatic, but will go into a mode where if you are sporting the car, the transmission is programmed to maximize power, and allow for vigorous motions and even intuitively know you are braking into a corner apex, and shift DOWN accordingly at the moment it chooses this is appropriate. I took a few laps in this mode and once I understood what it was doing at what occasion, it was quite fun and appropriately making decsions for me. I say that is ideal for canyon roads where you want to enjoy some sports driving, but leaving you with some critical control margins to help you safely get through the unexpected with VSC still keeping check on extreme behaviors like unintentional under or over-steer of large degree whether by driver error or hitting a big patch of sand or water. This won't eliminate stupid driving but it sure does help in making the right choice when your $30,000 car purchase is on the line (VSC is also on MT as well, but not tied to the brain of shifting patterns like the AT, obviously)

If you have the time, you can test the "hidden" feature too, where you press on the TRC switch for more than 3 seconds, which eliminates ALL ASSIST. and two yellow lamps on the dash indicate OFF OFF. Here you have full MANUAL control of the transmission, allowing you to hit and stay on the rev limit if you choose to do so. And also, to change gear anywhere in the range as long as the next lower gear will not over-rev the engine beyond the limit. It will also allow your car to spin, fall off the road, smoke tires, kill parts, just as if you had a manual.

Only thing you can't do really, is the clutch pedal drop to instantly disengage the driveline... Which isn't really a feature but a necessity in changing gears on a manual transmission. Well if drifting is your thing, then yes a manual does have the ability to intentionally disrupt the contact patch by sending driveline shocks, (called clutch kicking by us who do this, a term we invented in Japan back in the 80's but being the same thing that Rally drivers did since the beginning of time). But alternate method of e-brake to break contact patch is also available to AT users just as well, and for all but the competition drifters, this can be used to initiate a drift. Advanced pro drifting does require driveline shocking to maintain a long drift where the car isn't behaving well enough, or doesn't have the power and gear ratios to sustain the wheel-spin, but at this level of needs and prupose, everyone SHOULD have a manual for that anyway. Just saying it isn't impossible even for the AT to enjoy a fun day in a safe drift day environment.

Digressing here a bit so I'll go back to saying...

TRY the AT by spending more time test driving it, as this is really more the odd-ball choice where unexpected pleasures can be coaxed, only by knowing how to use it in different modes of operation, and is less traditional of the two. Get to know the magic of this one, by spending lots of time on this. As once you do, its pretty addictive and capable, despite our own preconception of how much we hated the AT in the past. All I am saying here is check this AT out well, as in the hands of someone who might want a Camry ease on a daily basis, its a pretty delightful thing to see it behave so enjoyably even for a seasoned MT lover, in a revolutionary way.

Manual is a manual, its as slick as ever and we all already know how to use one, if you know how to drive one. If you made up your mind on the manual, I will just say DO that as I wouldn't doubt your choice based on desires to have a MT.

That would be my best suggestion for a person going to test-drive an FRS.

I ejnoy the manual more on almost every sports oriented car I drive, but this is one AT that won my heart for the time being...and the first ever to do so.

I hate you Moto i cant argue with your points at all they are to good lol.

If they have a AT and a MT when i go to get my car i will defiantly test drive both so i can see what your saying.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by StuttterButtter

I hate you Moto i cant argue with your points at all they are to good lol.

If they have a AT and a MT when i go to get my car i will defiantly test drive both so i can see what your saying.

Again, spend more time on AT based on the stuff I wrote here.
That's the odd one with so much hidden inside.

We all know MT and if you love it you know you need it and there isn't anything surprising here.

Not trying to convert people to AT here, just suggesting you make a real educated choice by not dismissing it as something you hate without knowing what was available at the tome you made your $29,000 purchase.

[Turbowned]

I can honestly see four-or-so reasons why you should buy the AT over the MT:

1. You sit in A LOT of traffic every day
2. You drive A LOT of miles and want the improved mileage. (At 15,000 mi/yr, you'd have to own the car for 4.5yrs before you'd break even for the added cost of the AT.)
3. You or a family member have a disability which prevents you from using a clutch pedal
4. You have a wife, girlfriend or daughter who will be driving the car and who refuses to drive stick (I don't mean to sound like a chauvinist; my girlfriend actually drives stick, too)
5. You're a typical lazy American who grew up on automatics and doesn't care that the rest of the world makes fun of us for driving autos all the time

Otherwise, you're spending $1,100 extra to get slightly decreased performance albeit with better fuel economy, and I would argue a tougher car to re-sell, since most enthusiasts will want the manual. Every single review of the car praises the manual for being fantastic, and the auto being good as well, but not as good as the manual. I could understand if the MT was rubbery, notchy or otherwise vague like it is in the Genesis Coupe, but considering that it's universally-praised, why wouldn't you get it?

Originally Posted by moto-p

If you want to drink coffee in your car.

I call BS! I drink coffee in my MT car every single day. The bumpy roads will spill the coffee before my shifting will.

Thanks to the Bluetooth, I no longer have to hold the phone to my ear with the right hand, steer with the left hand, and quickly let go of the steering to shift with my left hand (yep, I used to do this all the time, my friends and I used to joke about how we all did it).

[Sport-Tech]

Moto, does putting the floor shifter over to the manual mode by pushing it to the left of D and then using the paddles automatically set the tranny into the full Sport mode? No need to use the buttons for that if true.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

Pride, snobbery, and otherwise ignorance aside, I can honestly see only four reasons why you should buy the AT over the MT:

1. You sit in A LOT of traffic every day
2. You drive A LOT of miles and want the improved mileage. (At 15,000 mi/yr, you'd have to own the car for 4.5yrs before you'd break even for the added cost of the AT.)
3. You or a family member have a disability which prevents you from using a clutch pedal
4. You have a wife, girlfriend or daughter who will be driving the car and who refuses to drive stick.

Easy to add to that list:
5. You love braking hard and then cornering at the limit, and then being in the proper gear for maximum post-apex acceleration, but either don't want to or can't learn how to properly heel/toe for the downshifting during braking that this maneuver requires on a MT.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Moto, does putting the floor shifter over to the manual mode by pushing it to the left of D and then using the paddles automatically set the tranny into the full Sport mode? No need to use the buttons for that if true.

The buttons allow you to select the shift patterns and downshift brain for sport mode in auto mode, as well as select different combinations and levels of TRC and VSC to suit your situation. The M-D selector is there to put you in full and complete control or have the car shift itself.
The automated SPORT VSC/Sport shift mode, is pretty clever too if you try it...
All off means, you are on your own, no intervention of the shift programs or VSC/TRC in M mode.

And different combination of these provide very different use and driving patterns.

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Easy to add to that list:
5. You love braking hard and then cornering at the limit, and then being in the proper gear for maximum post-apex acceleration, but either don't want to or can't learn how to properly heel/toe for the downshifting during braking that this maneuver requires on a MT.

Not wanting to learn how to properly drive an MT is a poor excuse in my book. This car should be the easiest car to heel/toe in.