Scion FT-86 FR-S

[DantKR]

That is pretty damn funny.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by DantKR

Basing everything on a single meet is silly.

Nice airbrushing though.


p.s.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by nate89

Wow dude...It would suck to be in a real conversation with you. Everybody would be talking and the subject might change a few times, then all the sudden you turn to each person and make a comment on something they said a while ago.

In a real conversation, I could instantly interject a comment and/or I could look at the person I am addressing...here I can do neither. I address comments directly to keep relevant information and talking points together.

Originally Posted by Dimman

OneDay: Take this challenge to see where I was going with my point: Are AWD, turbo H4 Subarus available from the Subaru dealer? Yes or no? Now how about are RWD, OHV V8 Scions available from the Scion dealer? Yes or no? Take it a bit further... Can you buy an OHV V8 in ANY current Toyota product? No? Thank you.

Yes. No. And: No. But come on, if you still believe that the H4 that is in the STI on the dealership lot is the same as the one in a rally car, you are far more ignorant than even I give you credit for being. At least Scion has the balls to put a factory backed car into drifting .

I was talking to a friend that is involved in professional drifting and, just for fun, asked his opinion on the Scion team. His name has been changed to protect his anonymity. This is his story [queue dramatic music]:

Me: What do you think of the Scion drift team?
Mr. Drifter: The Scion team is lame, but it's cool they have factory backing. Plus, their car will probably be illegal within the next two years because of rule changes.
Me: Are there other factory backed teams in drifting?
Mr. D: Not to the extenet of Ford and Scion...wait...Hyundai backs Rhys [Millen] but he sucks. All racers gone drifting suck, they have no style and drive like robots.
Me: Why will the Scion car be illegal?
Mr. D: Tube frame chassis thing. I am in the 2 class system camp, I want all those race car drivers to go start a tube frame unlimited class and the rest have to drive cool cars; aka OEM.
Me: As in OEM chassis? But unlimited mods?
Mr. D: Like no moving pickup points of suspension parts, no tube frame bullshit.

So if Scion really does want a presence in professional drifting, the FT-86 would be a good solution (granted it would be cooler if it was a Toyota so they could really play up the AE-86 heritage).

Originally Posted by Dimman

I also don't see how your missing the point of the SW20 MR-2. They re-worked the suspension mid-model due to people wrecking. So yes in fact they did dumb-down a performance car due to concerns about litigation. Again, thank you.

Again, I got your point and I am well aware of what transpired--I lived through it. I am all for Darwinian-esque elimination of idiots, but making a car safer for public streets was a smart move on Toyota's part. What I am saying, again, is that I don't see that same kind of issue with the FT-86 FMR layout--regardless of what badge it wears.

Originally Posted by Dimman

if you don't know the Mk3s, you don't know...

That's kinda like the "It's a Jeep thing" thing...I only know what people call and ask for, I am not nearly as knowledgeable about Supras (any of them) as I am about the cars I regularly drive and work on.

Originally Posted by Dark

They want to create failure like GM did with their 8 brands, which only 4 survived under it.

Seriously, they _want_ to create failure?

Originally Posted by 70NYD

like i said if schumacher told me something other than what is related to driving technique i wouldnt care, if one of his pit crew told me thats a different story.. they build the cars and design them, not the driver

Most grassroots drivers _are_ there own pit crew. We do not have engineers or crew other than ourselves and friends/competitors. We build, race, wreck, fix, tune, and finance our own cars. So, while you wouldn't be wrong to necessarily distrust the driver's advice when he shows up with a crew and a trailered 911 Cup Car, you would also be wrong to think most guys at track days are unfamiliar with engineering (in fact most of my closest racing buddies are engineers).

[lynk26]

OneDay: Take this challenge to see where I was going with my point: Are AWD, turbo H4 Subarus available from the Subaru dealer? Yes or no? Now how about are RWD, OHV V8 Scions available from the Scion dealer? Yes or no? Take it a bit further... Can you buy an OHV V8 in ANY current Toyota product? No? Thank you.

Cool, I guess I'll just go to my local Ford dealer and buy me a 2.0L turbocharged AWD Ford Fiesta then. Oh, wait....

[Dark]

Originally Posted by oneday

Seriously, they _want_ to create failure?

Sarcastic...

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Dark

Chill out, dude. I only said the fact, the statistics. Even if its main competitor is Stang alone, Stang outsell Gen Coupe badly. Actually, Gen Coupe is in the gap between the Z and Stang, so it's their competitors. I didn't say the Z compete directly with Stang.

Not even close. The Genesis being overpriced does not mean it competes in any way with the Nissan Z.


The Scion RWD conversion is a grey area of the rules at best. FWD to RWD conversions should have been outlawed for drift competitions to keep the chassis legitimate. NASCAR is a spec series, the engines are built by Toyota to certain specs for the series but the advantage for Toyota is advertising not development.

Ford has been rallying via custom chassis configurations since the Escort Cosworth which wasn't even an Escort drivetrain. I'm sure quite a few of you know more about this story than me. The drivetrain was mostly from the Ford Sierra the midsize and was a RWD car for Ford of Europe.,am I right?

My point is don't compare the Subaru rally cars to the Ford rally cars. The Fiesta is using the old Cosworth drivetrain as well and is therefore a bastard of a car, to use a vulgar word of which I ask your forgiveness.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Not even close. The Genesis being overpriced does not mean it competes in any way with the Nissan Z.

I think I said "Even if its main competitor is Stang alone, Stang outsell Gen Coupe badly."
The point is Gen Coupe is not a desirable car for most people who in the market for a pony car.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by oneday

Yes. No. And: No. But come on, if you still believe that the H4 that is in the STI on the dealership lot is the same as the one in a rally car, you are far more ignorant than even I give you credit for being. At least Scion has the balls to put a factory backed car into drifting.

Look Oneday, you can enter a stock STI to a rally event and not get mocked at an epic level. Try that with your tC at a drift event... My issue is the race car's relevance to the brand.

As for balls? Being a factory team with a single-purpose engineered race car against a bunch of privateers with production-based cars takes balls?

Originally Posted by oneday

Again, I got your point and I am well aware of what transpired--I lived through it. I am all for Darwinian-esque elimination of idiots, but making a car safer for public streets was a smart move on Toyota's part. What I am saying, again, is that I don't see that same kind of issue with the FT-86 FMR layout--regardless of what badge it wears

Um...

Originally Posted by oneday

The "Lawyers will make them water it down" argument is tired and ignorant.

Er...?

BTW, Honda did the same thing with the S2000.

Originally Posted by oneday

That's kinda like the "It's a Jeep thing" thing...I only know what people call and ask for, I am not nearly as knowledgeable about Supras (any of them) as I am about the cars I regularly drive and work on.

That was evident by you perpetuating the 800hp on stock internals 2JZ myth. They are out there, but they don't live long. 600hp is the more accepted 'safe' stock internal number.

OK, I will take the Mk3 bait after all.

As for the Mk3 community, maybe it's my local scene that's the exception.

There are function before form modified cars.












I'm used to being the shittiest-looking and on the slower side of the group. 1JZ twin turbo, aluminum driveshaft, powersteering delete, etc... (Middle black car in the pics) White car ran 9.90 @ 147 this summer, full interior, street driven, 7MGTE. Mk3's that are modded need a lot of function just to get a shred of respect. Built 7M's and a lot of 1JZ and 2JZ swaps.

The rest of the Mk3's are pretty much as you described except bone-stock. Head-gasket time bombs, covered in rust.

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by oneday

Most grassroots drivers _are_ there own pit crew. We do not have engineers or crew other than ourselves and friends/competitors. We build, race, wreck, fix, tune, and finance our own cars. So, while you wouldn't be wrong to necessarily distrust the driver's advice when he shows up with a crew and a trailered 911 Cup Car, you would also be wrong to think most guys at track days are unfamiliar with engineering (in fact most of my closest racing buddies are engineers).

and let me guess you think i sit at home all day and play need for speed? or BFS??
every second member of my FSAE team is HARDCORE in to weekend racing (IE 95% of the mechanical engineers from the team) but not every weekend racer on the track is a engineer. i know mechanics, electricians and pannel beaters that are all racers.. they are all there cus they are good driers, but hey they dont know squat of how to setup a suspension past what they read on the internet..
and your mr drifter speech proves HOW stupid this whole convo is.. a ROLL CAGE IS A FUCKING SPACE FRAME.. most cars on the street are a cross between a space frame and a monocoque.. i understand what you meant to say (ie full space frame chassis with a look-alike skin over) but it just proves that just cus someone is a driver it dont mean they ACTUALLY know any technicalities.
a buddy of myn is hardcore in to cars.. talks about them all the time allways wants to go to the track.. hes a engineer.. a CIVIL engineer... (he still knows his shit but lol)

SO for the 5th time (and you sound like a dumb fuck since you cant see my point still nor acknowledge it) just because someone LOVES cars and is in to racing that doesnt mean that they actually know any specifics apart from what was on the box the part came out of.. they couldnt make their own swaybar that is PERFECTLY suited the the car they run with the weight of the car and the most probably modified suspension geometry taken in to consideration.. they would just get a swaybar of the shelf that sort of works for their setup and get ok transfer controll..

as for the point dimman was trying to say
a rally WRX (while subaru was still racing as a factory) was a H4 AWD setup, the car you buy at the dealer is a H4 AWD setup. you can bore and or stroke the engine with forged internals and a lightened crank, bigger turbo (although i dunno if anti-lag is legal for streets of US, its not here) strengthened gearbox, different suspension ETC and the car will actually be VERY close to the WRC one (bar the chassis mods)
go to a scion dealership and buy a tC, take it home, you have to physically cut the floor pan out, make a new one, relocate the fuel tank cus you HAVE to not cus you want to, fabricate a new firewall, new mounts, new rear subframe and then drop everything in.. and then do more changes for the suspension etc making it a 10% tC
its EASYER (cheaper 2) to make a spaceframe and bolt the skin on to it, making it a 5% tC

[Matador]

roflmao @ "professional drfiters" .....

[DantKR]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Threads over. Move along!

[oneday]

Originally Posted by Dimman

BTW, Honda did the same thing with the S2000.

It's tired and ignorant because the MR2 issues were what, almost 20 years ago? And, because the probability of Toyota having to do a similar post-production dilution of a product is staggeringly low. Honda revised the S2K because the car was twitchy (there is no doubt about it) and they made the car better--it's called progression or evolution in Honda's case--they really did make the car better to drive.

Originally Posted by Dimman

As for the Mk3 community, maybe it's my local scene that's the exception.

There are function before form modified cars. Built 7M's and a lot of 1JZ and 2JZ swaps. The rest of the Mk3's are pretty much as you described except bone-stock. Head-gasket time bombs, covered in rust.

That is awesome that you have that many modded MK3s in your area...we definitely do not have that...and it's probably because the 7M requires so much maintenance and/or money (1J/2J swaps can be spendy) to make reliable performers.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

and let me guess you think i sit at home all day and play need for speed? or BFS??

Nope. I have no idea what you do, only what you stated here. I give you props for being part of the FSAE crew...I am friends with and race with guys that were/are on Maryland, Lehigh, Drexel and MIT teams...they build some ridiculous machines and are all great competitors. Some of their best engineers can't drive to save their life, but all of their drivers are also engineers that contribute to the team more than just their driving skills.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

SO for the 5th time (and you sound like a dumb fuck since you cant see my point still nor acknowledge it) just because someone LOVES cars and is in to racing that doesnt mean that they actually know any specifics apart from what was on the box the part came out of..

Really? Never acknowledged? I never disputed that there are terrible instructors nor that there were drivers that don't know **** about set up.

Originally Posted by oneday

It sucks that you had a bad instructor, there are stupid/ignorant people everywhere

Originally Posted by oneday

you wouldn't be wrong to necessarily distrust the driver's advice when he shows up with a crew and a trailered 911 Cup Car

I am glad that I am not one of those kinds of instructors. I am not an engineer--never profess to be--but I do know how enough about set up and how to communicate to my team mates what the car is doing so we can get the car set up better.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

i understand what you meant to say (ie full space frame chassis with a look-alike skin over) but it just proves that just cus someone is a driver it dont mean they ACTUALLY know any technicalities.

Tube frame is short for "tubular space frame," as in, "a space frame made from tubular material." Tube frame may be colloquial or possibly even archaic, but it is not incorrect.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

they couldnt make their own swaybar that is PERFECTLY suited the the car they run with the weight of the car and the most probably modified suspension geometry taken in to consideration.. they would just get a swaybar of the shelf that sort of works for their setup and get ok transfer controll..

There is such a small percentage of people that would even consider attempting to make their own swaybar for a production based car (why spend the time or money when Whiteline or Eibach already did it?) that this statement boarders on ludicrous. That said, I do understand your point.

Believe me, I know all to well that most people think, "I need a new sway bar," and then follow that up with, "What's the biggest bar you've got?" without any regard for the effect it will have on the dynamics of the car. Some people are worth taking the time to explain what they really need to, others, not so much.

Originally Posted by 70NYD

[continued STI rally car vs tC drift car discussion]

Wow, again, I never said that the drift tC was close to the same as a stock tC, nor disputed that the STI is closer to the showroom version, just that the STI is not nearly as "pure" as Dimman was trying to make it out to be.

[Matador]

The 7M requires properly torqued head bolts and that's about it.

[70NYD]

Oneday
Thats exactly my point, Being a great driver does not reflect on anything else in your life. It's a skill set and it doesn't emply anything about the person other than their ability to drive. Knowing every aspect of a car and knowing how to make one, being a panel beater, mechanic, engineer.. None of these mean you know how to drive either..
Fsae has been around in my devision since '00 and my teams is a fairly young one (started in '04) but were very close to the top and this year might win..