Scion FT-86 FR-S

[DantKR]

so the lawyers wont be pressuring toyota because the buyers will be the enthusiasts and know how to drive this car and therefore the car will have less of a chance of being put into a tree by someone who doesn't know how to drive, hence the car comes as its supposed to and not a watered down version because toyota doesn't want to be sued.

So you really think Toyota is willing to sacrifice sales numbers to keep the car "pure". I sure as hell hope so, but I have little faith in CEOs or people that already have millions to make real decisions like this. You're assuming that Toyota drivers know how to drive and Scion drivers don't. I think this is where you're wrong. It will always be on an individual basis.

how many kids just out of school/college do you know that can afford a porsche? coz i dont know ANY in fact the only people i know who own porches are 30+ aleast and actually know how to drive and go and do the porsche driving courses if they dont, thats why porsche can pretty much replicate the track cars, thats also why ferrari can take the tech from F1 and put it into their raod cars, because of the price range only the wealthy can afford these cars and they dont drive like morons on the road because one scratch could equate to the cost of a door of a scion/toyota.

Come to south florida... you'll be scared shitless at how many young people drive cars that cost more than 5 of ours combined. I've seen plenty of 30- people driving Porsche. Assuming that 1) people over 30 know how to drive just because they have a Porsche 2) Assuming if they don't would take their driving course are both... just... way off.

I've seen both cases of morons. I've had Maserati pass me on the interstate going at least 150. Just because he has a Maserati means he can drive? Fuck no. Funny enough he was pulled over a few mile down the road. Just because people have money doesn't mean they can drive any better or worse than anyone else.

thats why i dont want it to be a scion because with the price target of this car and the demographic of scion the car wont only be re-engineered in the states it will be worldwide, because toyota wont want kids killing themselves in their ft's

look what has happened because of Englands rule on the front of cars the hood is going to have to be raised by 50mm to comply and thus is going to effect every ft sold in the world.

The price/demographic will be the same if it's Toyota OR Scion. The same people that will crash them will crash them as Toyota or Scion. The same people that will baby them will baby them as either one.

Originally Posted by Dark

@ oneday: I have a few questions for you.

Why does Scion come to existence?

Not oneday but I'll give it a shot. Scion came to existence to bring a fun inspired and affordable brand to the market. Something that could be viewed as "fresh"

Who are Scion's sale targets?

20's - 30's Male and Females.

How much is bargain for most Scion customer?

Not sure what you meant by this one. I'd assume though that it's a pretty decent bargain now a days in comparison to other vehicle brands.

What is demographic age of FT-86?

20's - 30's Males

How much will the FT-86 cost?(you can use either business strategy lens or logical lens)

Going to just gander somewhere in the $20k - $30k range depending on options and all that random crap. But we won't know for sure until Toyota tells us.

Why Toyota's boss, Mr Toyoda, said he want to bring sport to the brand when he give up the only sport car to Scion? Is this business strategy or a lie?

He wants to bring back the passion for driving Toyota has, I don't think anyone denies that. But you also have to remember, Scion is only in America. So he would only be giving it to us here in the states in the outside form of Toyota, so he really wouldn't be giving up much in that aspect.

I know I'm still undergraduate student in business management major, and I'm too young for these kind of stuff. More or less, I still understand what kind of business would make sense to a company. Some people say Toyota wants to save Scion. Yeah. It makes sense because losing a brand means losing a lot of money, but Scion would have been closed the door long time ago if it has not done good job. If they really make FT-86 a Scion, they are too childish to be hired by Toyota.

I don't think Toyota is trying to save Scion. Scion is doing pretty well on it's own, as it Toyota in the grand scheme of things.

Points:

1) Assuming most people buy Scions because of how they market the TC alone is wrong. A majority of TC drivers are in fact women. And the men that buy them very rarely do any kinds of mods outside of what you can do in the dealership.

2) I went to a few local import car gatherings back in Florida when I had my STi. I actually never saw a single Scion at the event. Most were early 90's Nissans and Civics.

3) The blind rage at Scion for having drift cars and all sorts of other things is stupid. Again, 90% of Scion buyers don't even know about any of that crap.

4) If Toyota re-engineers the FT-86 outside of basic stuff needed for emissions and what not. Then we can all rage.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The STI, Ferrari and Hyundai at least have the freakin' powertrain layout that you can buy off the showroom.

So what. They are still purpose built racecars that have so little in common with the factory car it's hardly worth mentioning. Yes, there are race series out there that require a large percentage of OEM components (most of the SCCA/NASA Club Racing classes, Grand Am CTSCC, and others) but they are very grassroots and these classes are designed to keep budgets reasonable for the participants (and not to be a viable way to sell cars).

Originally Posted by Dimman

[the other marquee's race cars] also share the fundamentals of the stock versions of their cars. The Scion drift car doesn't.

Again, you are talking about purpose built race cars. They have little in common with their mass produced, road going versions, save for the branding and silhouette.

Yes, the Rally America STI looks like an STI you can buy at your local dealership and it even has a turbo charged boxer motor and AWD chassis. The engine in the rally STI shares only the base architecture and is built from the ground up to be a motor for a rally car. Everything else on the rally STI is built to withstand the rigors of rally stages and has no similarity to anything on the street car. How is that so different than Toyota using the chassis from one car in their portfolio and the drivetrain from another? It's still a purpose built race car.

Purpose built racecars are also intended to be marketing tools. Toyota's marketing department is, by all standards, one of the best in the industry. They see an opportunity to sell cars to people by using the drift car's appearance to sell street cars. Anyone that buys a tC thinking it is in any way equal to the drift car they see someone clutch-kicking through a chicane is as delusional as the mook that buys an STI thinking he's got the same thing as Pastrana.

Originally Posted by Dimman

As for everything else I skimmed through, I'm not going to point-by-point it. I'll give you a more polite version.

Skimming is a great way to ensure ignorance. And you can't be polite while being thorough? I did not realize they needed to be mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Dimman

All talk no walk.

You just described probably 75% (just for the record, I made that stat up to illustrate a point) of automotive enthusiasts. With very few exceptions no matter what brand or model of car you own many of fellow owners are going to mod their car to look a certain way--like a purpose built racecar that shares a shapeperhaps?--rather than to make it perform a certain way. I deal with these people on a daily basis. The bulk of the aftermarket industry is form over function, it does not matter if it is for Mustangs, 911s, WRXs or Supras (especially Mk3s).

Originally Posted by Dimman

Toyota needs to shake up its North American management bad.

Yes. Yes they do.

Originally Posted by Calais

yes toyota does do the engineering but if it comes out of toyota the "youth" that will be interested in it if it were a scion wont want it because toyota isnt "cool," right?

So you are saying it should be a Scion otherwise it won't sell because Toyota does not make exciting cars? Not sure I follow.

Originally Posted by Calais

so the lawyers wont be pressuring toyota because the buyers will be the enthusiasts and know how to drive this car and therefore the car will have less of a chance of being put into a tree by someone who dosnt know how to drive, hence the car comes as its supposed to and not a watered down version because toyota dosnt want to be sued.

Stop. Just. Stop. There is no vetting process for buyers of cars, save for "Can you afford it?" I don't care what brand, make or model car you are considering buying driver ability never comes into play. Look at the number of exotics that are bought, and wrecked, buy more-money-than-skill drivers everyday (I've been witness to two of these in the last year while at the track). I can find you dozens videos & pictures of just this kind of thing. The "Lawyers will make them water it down" argument is tired and ignorant.

Originally Posted by Calais

@ oneday only did you really just compare porsche to toyota???

Yes, money was not being discussed, only chassis & drivetrain layout vs driving dynamics. Dimman had implied that a motor positioned behind the front axle would cause too many wrecks and I was simply pointing out the flaw in that logic. If you prefer I could talk about the VW Beetle (no, not the New Beetle)? Or, there is the case of the Nissan 350Z/G35 with their notoriously twitchy and litigation riddled FMR chassis. Oh, sorry, that platform does quite well, actually....must be the more powerful motor that helps.

Originally Posted by Calais

thats why i dont want it to be a scion because with the price target of this car and the demographic of scion the car wont only be re-engineered in the states it will be worldwide, because toyota wont want kids killing themselves in their ft's

But it's already been argued that the price of the FT-86 will be too high for the 20-25 y/o tC target market...so maybe Toyota wants Scion to grow _with_ their previous customers rather than their now older customer looking elsewhere (like a Hyundai Genesis Coupe)?

Originally Posted by Calais

look what has happened because of Englands rule on the front of cars the hood is going to have to be raised by 50mm to comply and thus is going to effect every ft sold in the world.

That is nothing new, world platform cars have had to accommodate Europe’s pedestrian safety legislation for the last few years. It's also nothing new that concept cars rarely are designed ready for production, but rather stylized/idealized renderings of what a designer would make in a perfect world.

Originally Posted by Dark

@ oneday: I have a few questions for you.

[Marketing Pop Quiz]

I understand the purpose and intent of the Scion brand. I don't necessarily buy in to that marketing, but I understand it. Yes, I own a tC, but not because it was marketed to me--I am outside the target demographic. I bought it because I like the way it looked, it was a good value and it was built buy Toyota--I'd had several Toyotas of my own and in my family previously (MR2, Celica, Paseo [ugh]) so knew their reputation. I will likely own another Toyota product again (Tundra--I need a tow vehicle in the worst way). Maybe Toyoda's intent with selling the FT as a Scion is to make the brand more than just a "Youth" brand, maybe he wants to see it also become something of a sportier brand since Toyota is regarded as a stodgier, appliance, family brand?

Originally Posted by Dark

Some people say Toyota wants to save Scion. Yeah. It makes sense because losing a brand means losing a lot of money, but Scion would have been closed the door long time ago if it has not done good job. If they really make FT-86 a Scion, they are too childish to be hired by Toyota.

Dark, no disrespect intended, but is English a second language for you? I am having a hard time understanding the point you are trying to make here. Care to give it another go?

[oneday]

Originally Posted by FT-HS

Logged on to say that I really enjoy reading Onedays posts

your posts are so good that your juggling several people at a time who dont know how to react to the sensibility coming from the arguments in your post

NICE

Thanks!

[FT-86GOD]

SNAPS remember u saying my wall of writing..... Ouch..

[fernan2]

@ oneday: please keep going. ...


Well i think that once the car is available for buying, the only thing that will stop buyers is the fact of how much it cost! because, i think its going to cost more than a genesis R spec. so then the hole scion thing wont even matter.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

there are more than Oneway to look at this.

Thank you, that is my point too...there is more than one way to look at this situation. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am really open minded about this; as I've said before, I don't care one way or the other which badge the car comes with. I am just trying to discuss and understand the irrational hatred/love for one brand over the other and point out the flaws in some of the logic being used. If someone can back up their opinion with sound logic and in a respectful way then I can be more accepting of that opinion.

Matador has made some very valid points and is typically very civil about making these points so I can respect what he (I am assuming Matador is a he) has to say, but that does not mean I think he, or you, 70NYD, are right. You also need to then be aware that your way is not the only way.

And, just to clear up what my affinity for and affiliation with Scion is about: It is simply out of convenience. I own a tC as an appliance to commute and travel with. I do not love it. I do not hate it. It does what it is supposed to do and it does it well. The tC is not my only car. The tC is not my track car or one of the cars I race with--I occasionally put it to use on the track to shuttle students around and show them the line or what a well set up car can do in capable hands (keeping up with and/or passing "faster" or "more powerful" cars with a underpowered, rolling-greenhouse is fun too).

I work in the performance aftermarket industry; I hold competition licenses with multiple sanctioning bodies; I instruct novice drivers and spend as much time on the track as I can afford--which is not nearly enough. And I don't do these things with just one brand or model. I've had the privilege to drive and instruct students in everything from Porsche 911s to Pontiac Grand Ams and have, with one sanctioning body or another, raced in more makes and models then I care to list. My point here is that I see and hear what people want from and what they do to their cars. I also experience first hand what people actually do with their cars once they are modified.

I do not know everything nor am I always right...but I have never claimed to be.
:happy0180:

[Dark]

@One day: I though you drive MX-5 and are from Holland. Oh well, what I was trying to say is, Scion doesn't need FT-86 to be saved. What Scion needs is s.th that more appeal to young buyers, especially small cars. You don't want to buy your kid a 23K+ car when he's 16 or even 18. You sound a little biased is all I can say. I'm not biased about Toyota badge. Toyota legendary brand, not the one was just founded a few years ago, so it deserve s.th better than a bland lineup.

[fernan2]

Originally Posted by dalli

Then how can we prepare ourselves for such a car? This is a serious question, I am not looking for any trouble.

haaahahaha! that was funny.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by Dark

I though you drive MX-5 and are from Holland.

I do and I am (but I am neither Dutch or from the Netherlands--I am sure there is a riddle in there somewhere).

Originally Posted by Dark

what I was trying to say is, Scion doesn't need FT-86 to be saved.

I don't understand what "s.th" is....but I get the gist of your comment. I agree Scion does not need the FT-86 to be saved. I don't even care if Scion is saved--they'll still have similar cars available as Toyotas.

Originally Posted by Dark

What Scion needs is s.th that more appeal to young buyers, especially small cars.

Again the "s.th"...thows me off....regardless: What Toyota needs for Scion to succeed is smaller cars with a little bit of a edgy look (not the xD). Attractive exteriors, well appointed interiors and reasonable prices are also what the segment demands from cars. If all it took was small inexpensive cars then Toyota would have sold the Yaris and Corolla as Scions, no?

Originally Posted by Dark

You don't want to buy your kid a 23K+ car when he's 16 or even 18.

Christ, I had a $500 '78 Nova I bought for myself at 16....so I could not fathom buying a child a car...they can buy it themselves. But to entertain your question: While I would prefer a more reasonably priced option and would likely be shopping for a used car for someone in that age range, if I had enough money to consider a $23K car for a kid I would expect it to be safe, economical, reliable and something the kid is going to appreciate enough to not trash it or take unnecessary risks with it. I see way more kids with Evos and STIs then you can imagine so a $23K Toyota/Scion seems much more reasonable to me.

Originally Posted by Dark

You sound a little biased is all I can say. I'm not biased about Toyota badge. Toyota legendary brand, not the one was just founded a few years ago, so it deserve s.th better than a bland lineup.

I'm really not biased, just trying to equalize the hate here.

A legendary brand means nothing without a group of products the world wants. Oldsmobile and Pontiac were legendary brands that do not exist anymore due to marketing failures--had nothing to do with engineering since GM did all that--and they are still around (barely). Pontiac in particular did not have a bland lineup (it wasn't exactly the "driving excitement" they promoted but the G8, Solstice and GTO were hardly blah).

There are so many legendary brands that have fallen off the market that it is sometimes depressing. Then there are some of the most legendary car manufacturers in the world (Bentley, Rolls Royce, Lamborghini, Audi, Mini, Opel) that are still in business because they are now a brand owned and operated by a larger company and can sell partially rebranded product. They live on off of the profit margins of the brother and sister product offerings (Lamborghini & Bentley [and Audi, to a lesser degree] would not exist if VAG didn't make a killing on VW and Porshe).

Legendary or not the Hyundai is making inroads with the Genesis Coupe, which is definitely a car that is on my (and probably a fair percent of potential FT-86 buyer's) radar for future purchases.

So, being a legendary brand does not equal success; well made and appropriately priced cars that appeal to a large enough percent of the public are what equals success. Could Scion one day become a legendary brand? Not sure if it can, and I am not sure if I care. I do know that Toyota did something different from the rest of the car producing world and it sure seemed to work, if only for a few years. I doubt Toyota execs will lose much sleep if Scion goes the way of Saturn, but I also doubt they want to see it fail.

[Dark]

@ One day

No, they don't want to see the division brand fail, but I also doubt it's the right decision for Toyota. Most people don't buy cars because it only does good job( handling, performance and sh*t), but also the brand image. Like in the US, most people buy American cars, it's not because they are more reliable than Japanese cars, but because they're American. Same thing happen in Europe. It's brand image that convinces people.

Why people still buy Toyota even though there were recall issue within Toyota? Simple. They trust the brand image that Toyota has built since it started, and the reliable cars the brand used to build.

Speak of Gen Coupe, the car does sell well if you look at the sale compare to Mustang V6 and the Z. It also lost in MT comparison because of lacking in performance and handling compares to the Z and Stang V6.

Last of all, I don't hate the brand that much, but I don't see what would benefit them to put FT-86 in Scion brand. They will justify the price for Scion buyer which will make the car cheaper. Yen hurts Japanese automakers so much, so what they need is to maximize the revenue. Making FT-86 a Toyota will help them to maximize the profit due to less add-on and more trim level. Enthusiasts can get bare bone or performance version, and ladies and gentlemen can get more luxurious and top less version.

@ whoever said soccer mom may get FT-86 if it's a Toyota? I don't think so. Middle class people who has family need a big space car, SUV or mini-van, and this world is full of middle class people.

[DantKR]

Originally Posted by Dark

@ One day

No, they don't want to see the division brand fail, but I also doubt it's the right decision for Toyota. Most people don't buy cars because it only does good job( handling, performance and sh*t), but also the brand image. Like in the US, most people buy American cars, it's not because they are more reliable than Japanese cars, but because they're American. Same thing happen in Europe. It's brand image that convinces people.

This is a recent thing. For the past 10-20 years Japanese cars have completely owned American brands. Why? Reliability. Honda and Toyota cars would easily break 250k miles and still keep going, you were lucky to get 90k out of most American cars. That and foreign cars were much cheaper. Branding had nothing to do with it.

Why people still buy Toyota even though there were recall issue within Toyota? Simple. They trust the brand image that Toyota has built since it started, and the reliable cars the brand used to build.

I agree, some people still bought them because they trusted the brand. But a lot of people switched over to American cars.

Speak of Gen Coupe, the car does sell well if you look at the sale compare to Mustang V6 and the Z. It also lost in MT comparison because of lacking in performance and handling compares to the Z and Stang V6.

If I'm not mistaken the V6 stang probably outsells the Z and Gen combined ;/

Last of all, I don't hate the brand that much, but I don't see what would benefit them to put FT-86 in Scion brand. They will justify the price for Scion buyer which will make the car cheaper. Yen hurts Japanese automakers so much, so what they need is to maximize the revenue. Making FT-86 a Toyota will help them to maximize the profit due to less add-on and more trim level. Enthusiasts can get bare bone or performance version, and ladies and gentlemen can get more luxurious and top less version.

I don't see the benefit either at this point. I would much rather it stick with Toyota. I'm hoping it's Toyota D;

[Siriusly.Andrew]

"s.th" is his way of saying "something". Took me a while to decipher his code lol.

So basically

Group A wants a TOYOTA sports car

Group B doesn't care - they want a Sports car lol

I'm a part of group A while your apart of Group B so I guess, in the eyes of the general forum populace, we're bitter enemies. How the heck does that work lol?

[e30m3sportevo]

first post! i've owned 12 AE86 in the past and have since moved on. i've gone over to the bmw camp for fr rwd goodness as they don't rust nearly as bad as ae86. e30's are amazing things but imo can't beat the nimbleness of an ae86. i've had quite a few cars in my time jza70, bnr32, e30 m3, is300, mazdaspeed 6, 540i, e36 325is, etc and nothing quite compares to the ae86.

anyways, back to the subject. i don't know if you guys are seeing this. but i find the marketing for the ft-86 is quite similar to that of the ae86 back in the 80's for the ae86. japan had the trueno and the levin. north america got the ugly bumper trueno version as the corolla gts while the rest of the world got the levin variant. it seems to be parallel to how things are going on with the ft86. japan gets both versions. north america once again gets the car under a different name with an ugly facelift compared the jdm version. euro, asia and the rest of the world get its modern day equivalent levin twin aka the subaru version.

the is300 was the last toyota i've owned and i refuse to buy anything new made by them. being in canada where scion is almost non-existent, it really bothers me that the ft86 would be sold as one. it feels like toyota/scion are not quite sure they want to achieve with the brand and the car. feels a lot like gm doesn't it? what pisses me off most is the news that the subaru version is euro only. i've been following the news about the ft86 quite closely and when japanese news broke earlier about how toyota was going to up the price, lower the power and move the demo to an older crowd, i immediately placed my bets on the subaru version hoping for a sti powered fr/awd monster. sadly it seems that won't happen either for us here in north america anyways.

i've been asked by my friends why i didn't buy a genesis coupe. i've always told them then 2.0t r spec wasn't sold in canada and that i was waiting for the ft86. but now, seeing how things are progressing it seems that i'll be in for a much longer stay in the bmw camp.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by DantKR

If I'm not mistaken the V6 stang probably outsells the Z and Gen combined ;/

Sorry dawg, I wanted to say " doesn't". Gen coupe doesn't sell well compare to its competitors.