Need Help getting power without Forced Induction

[MikeM7]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

1. Are you planning on going FI? If you are planning on going with the electric SC, you might want to use your CAI with it, and that requires a removable elbow. The Skunk2 CAI has a removable elbow, and that's why I got it, so I could use it with the Electric SC when they get to my name on the list. It's still in development though, so there's a long wait time for the electric SC.

2. Are you driving a manual or auto? When most people say they want power, they really want acceleration. Changing your final drive gears will give much better acceleration with only a small effect on economy. I like the 4.875 for the auto, and 4.3, or 4.55 for the manual.

3. Learn to scale your MAF. No MAF scale is perfect, even the stock one. Small changes to the MAF scale have effects you can feel and even hear, and give better acceleration the closer you come to your goal of 0 STFT/LTFT, (fuel trims). Steve99 and codename47 have some very good links and guides for doing this yourself. Since you already have an OFT, you can download RomRaider for free and do this at no additional cost.

1. No, no FI. Too expensive, wife would kill me. I can get away with a couple thousand in bolt on's, spread out over a few months. She won't really notice that. Plus, it's a daily driver, not a track car. I just want to make some improvements for personal enjoyment and to improve my ability to jump in the fast lane without cutting someone off. People around here like to merge onto 65mp highways at 45mph...

2. I would never buy this car in automatic.. if I wanted automatic I'd just get a nice sedan.

3. I regretfully don't really know what you're talking about.. too technical for me. I will have to read up. I'm guessing you're talking about tuning to get best airflow performance. I was under the assumption that the OFT guys did all the hard technical work for me, and I just needed to flash their pre-programmed tune based on the mods I have. Since all I have performance-wise is a drop in, I just went with the stage 1 tune it came with. I assume if I add anything else, like BPB, I'll just need to download the appropriate tune from OFT, and flash it.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by MikeM7

1. No, no FI. Too expensive, wife would kill me. I can get away with a couple thousand in bolt on's, spread out over a few months. She won't really notice that. Plus, it's a daily driver, not a track car. I just want to make some improvements for personal enjoyment and to improve my ability to jump in the fast lane without cutting someone off. People around here like to merge onto 65mp highways at 45mph...

2. I would never buy this car in automatic.. if I wanted automatic I'd just get a nice sedan.

3. I regretfully don't really know what you're talking about.. too technical for me. I will have to read up. I'm guessing you're talking about tuning to get best airflow performance. I was under the assumption that the OFT guys did all the hard technical work for me, and I just needed to flash their pre-programmed tune based on the mods I have. Since all I have performance-wise is a drop in, I just went with the stage 1 tune it came with. I assume if I add anything else, like BPB, I'll just need to download the appropriate tune from OFT, and flash it.

That's the same route I went and for the same reason lol. I am past that now however, and decided I'm going FI anyway. Good luck bud! Headers and E85 are a marked improvement over stock if you have access to E85.

[MikeM7]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

Just get a tune headers and axle back call it done

Do you think I would be best off selling the power blocks I ordered and putting that money towards headers? I was planning to do headers eventually anyway, not sure if they will detract from or compliment BPB gains. Same for exhaust, although I was planning on waiting a while for that.

The powerblocks should arrive this week and I'm torn. I see a lot of people are happy with them, but also a lot of people saying they are overrated and don't work well with other mods. I don't want to go to the huge hassle of installation (which I'm not even sure I can handle) if it's not worth it.

[jflogerzi]

Header plue tune. Imo oft and ofh offer best bang for your buck. For 1000$ if you have e85 should offer a substantial bump. Even on 91 it is still a nice bump. So yes sell the power blocks

[cf6mech]

Originally Posted by stugray

That still has nothing to do with hp. in F=ma, F= "Force" and force is not equal to hp.

You can measure engine hp before ever putting it in a car, so the hp # has absolutely nothing to do with car weight.

Although some people incorrectly believe that if you shed mass from the rotating assembly that it directly equates to extra hp. It does not.

Did I say force equals horsepower?.....the law still applies 100% to the situation....reducing Mass in any aspect of the car requires less and less force to accelerate it or stop it....be it flywheels....wheels....driveshafts....tires... or the car as a whole.....I'm not talking gaining horsepower but gains achieved by lessoning the force to move it.....examples follow of a 250bhp Ariel Adam beating cars twice and in some cases three times the hp.....

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/rocingham_conf_2.html

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by stugray

Some of us still contend that you cannot have horsepower gains by reducing any part of the rotating mass.

Originally Posted by Poodles

But you're STILL not really making more power, it's just not as much drivetrain loss.

*raises hand*
If an inertia dyno measures how long it takes to accelerate a known mass to measure power and decreasing the drive train inertia results in a lower time to accelerate that fixed mass isn't the the result an increase in power?
I am not suggesting that lwcp is significant but I'm suggesting that lightweight flywheel plus lighter wheels might show a significant gain (I don't mean it would show a truckload gain but outside of experimental error).
Just wondering.

[diBreezy]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

Header plue tune. Imo oft and ofh offer best bang for your buck. For 1000$ if you have e85 should offer a substantial bump. Even on 91 it is still a nice bump. So yes sell the power blocks

+1

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

*raises hand*
If an inertia dyno measures how long it takes to accelerate a known mass to measure power and decreasing the drive train inertia results in a lower time to accelerate that fixed mass isn't the the result an increase in power?

Excellent question!
In this example (dyno fixed drum mass) the reduction in drivetrain rotating mass WOULD result in a lower total inertial mass (dyno drum plus drivetrain).
And therefore faster RPM ramp times = greater effective HP.

Now consider this example: Instead of a dyno drum, the "drum" is the earth.
When the car does the dyno run, is it spinning up the earth like the dyno?
No it is launching the car's mass, not the dyno drum's mass.

So NOW the resistance to forward acceleration (and rate of increase in RPMs) is the CARs mass plus the drivetrain's rotational mass, NOT the dyno drum's mass plus the drivetrain's mass.
So the net effect of reducing drivetrain rotational mass is magnified by a dyno (assuming same settings on dyno).

This is why I say that reduction of rotating mass just to make the car go faster (all other parts being equal) can be achieved by just removing the same mass from anywhere on the car.

IF you are building a new engine from the ground up, then there can be a huge benefit to reducing rotating mass because it reduces engine internal forces, & inertia which results in less wear and higher possible RPMs (and less damage due to harmonics.
With the trade that it might be more susceptible to harmonics (frequencies shift with lighter components).

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I am not suggesting that lwcp is significant but I'm suggesting that lightweight flywheel plus lighter wheels might show a significant gain (I don't mean it would show a truckload gain but outside of experimental error).
Just wondering.

Yes FW & wheels (tire) mass has the greatest effect on drivetrain rotational mass.

[Amaya]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

*raises hand*
If an inertia dyno measures how long it takes to accelerate a known mass to measure power and decreasing the drive train inertia results in a lower time to accelerate that fixed mass isn't the the result an increase in power?
I am not suggesting that lwcp is significant but I'm suggesting that lightweight flywheel plus lighter wheels might show a significant gain (I don't mean it would show a truckload gain but outside of experimental error).
Just wondering.

Let's assume the engine makes 200hp stock. That means that there is 200hp available at the crankshaft. That 200hp is your "power budget". If you are talking about acceleration some of your power budget has to be spent on accelerating (and overcoming friction) in the drivetrain. So the power that is available at the wheels which is being used to actually accelerate the car/you is less. By reducing weight in the drivetrain you are freeing up some more power to be used to accelerate the car. You cannot reduce weight and gain more power in an absolute sense. But people like to relate X amount of weight reduction has the same effect on acceleration as Y power increase. Although that comparison is really only accurate within a certain range of speeds or when disregarding major factors like drag.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Amaya

If you are talking about acceleration some of your power budget has to be spent on accelerating (and overcoming friction) in the drivetrain.

When removing rotational mass from the drive train I am suggesting there is less inertia to overcome.

Originally Posted by Amaya

You cannot reduce weight and gain more power in an absolute sense.

I'm am being a pedant here but if one is measuring power on an inertia dyno and one remove a significant amount of drive train inertia I am suggesting the reading, that is the power displayed, will increase. That is, there has been an increase in acceleration therefore an increase in power.
This is the way I interpret the system.

[MikeM7]

Originally Posted by GreaseBall

Hello,

Was wondering what I can do to get the most power out of my scion without getting a Turbo or supercharger. Please let me know what you guys think.

Thank you,
-GreaseBall

OP, short answer appears to be

-Openflash Tablet
-Openflash Header

and, if you don't mind filling up constantly at special gas stations (which I do)
-E85 Tune

This is my take away after the last week of searching/reading/asking. Should provide substantial power gains for least money (~$1200). After that, maybe start working on exhaust, although it looks like for each component, you're only looking at a couple whp gain, so your hp per dollar falls substantially after the OFT/OFH combo.

Experts, correct me if I'm wrong.

As of now, I'm planning to sell BPB, buy OFH, re-tune, and call it a day.

[cf6mech]

I've been told , don't know how true it is and I haven't measured it myself but switching to E85 with a tune can possible result in a 50 horsepower gain.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

I've been told , don't know how true it is and I haven't measured it myself but switching to E85 with a tune can possible result in a 50 horsepower gain.

From bone stock to E85 and tune, maybe. From tuned to E85 plus tune, I have my doubts. Most of the tuners that advertise numbers are showing about a 40 whp gain with E85 and a tune. Of course I take that with a grain of salt. E85, a tune, and a decent header back exhaust would probably equate to a 50 whp gain though.

BTW, I haven't seen any updates on your swap lately. Has there been much progress?

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

I've been told , don't know how true it is and I haven't measured it myself but switching to E85 with a tune can possible result in a 50 horsepower gain.

Possibly at 7200 rpm or something where bone stock has already fallen off the cliff. But certainly not a peak to peak gain of 50whp, at least on a realistic dyno.

30whp with header on a dyno where stock cars make 155 - 160 is more like it. E85 is not magic.. it is an oxygenated fuel with supreme knock resistance so you gain a bit of power from the additional fuel and oxygen in the cylinder and a bit more (when NA) from being able to advance timing to MBT.

However, once you hit MBT there is nothing left other than improving VE.. that is why I am very skeptical that you would ever see 50whp gain

I would say the best bang for the buck is OFT+OFH+OF-E85 tune. Then a set of AD08's or RS-3's.